Tuesday, June 20, 2006

Yellow Thread 2.0

This is the yellow thread. Discussion: what topics do you want to keep in here?

183 comments:

Judy B. said...

Yellow journalism popped into my mind, so maybe a good place to put links to other sites... not that they will be tarnished... just a good way to remember the thread... at least for me...

Judy B. said...

Yellow also makes me think about LBT (light beam technology) so a good place to connect with with John G...

John G. said...

"Yellow also makes me think about LBT (light beam technology)"

Love it!
keep the dream alive...

gotta go 4 now, christine I will reply when I have more time, but in a nutshell, been all over the world...Georgia is home and much to offer...affordably.

dan said...

Yellow

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Very pretty, Dan.

Judy B. said...

The yellow sunflowers made me think of my childhood growing up in Kansas where the Sunflower is the state flower... Thanks for the memories Dan..

Christin... maybe mid America where there are four seasons and really good people would be a place for you to check out as a place to live... If you can work from home (internet) or figure out a livelihood, the livin' is inexpensive... some of the small towns are drying up and need fresh blood... There was a small town in Iowa offering free houses to people who would settle down there... My cousis was just out here from Nebraska and she was telling us how "cheap" it is for independent care and assisted care for the elderly... and the care is good... something to remember when I get old and cranky...
In the meantime, I will stay in my little bit of heaven in the Pacific Northwest... We do not encourage people to move here, but in your case we could make an exception...

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Judy (and Deb -- you mentioned something about this subject before too),
There is a particular career I have been interested in since I was a child, long before there was even a market for that type of work. And it's a skill I would be able to use anywhere in the country and in many places throughout the world. It is sleep disorders research. I've had this circadian rhythm disorder since I was seven years old, so naturally sleep has long been a subject of major interest for me. But until I get the training I need, I'm stuck doing menial jobs in order to be working during the hours when my energy peaks.

My circadian rhythm seems to be delayed by about six hours in relation to the general population, so my most efficient waking hours are roughly between noon and 4am in winter, and 1pm to 5am in summer. I sleep very soundly from dawn till the early afternoon. I have tried so many times throughout the years, for several months in a row each time, to flip my sleep schedule. But every time I have, I would just get through my work days like a robot with no enthusiasm. And worst of all, I'd get cumulatively more run down as each week and month passed. Then as soon as I'd switch back to the afternoon/evening shift (right from the very first day), I would immediately feel wonderful again.

Polysomnography technologists do most of their work overnight, so that would be the ideal job for me. One of our community colleges offers a certificate program (which includes an internship) for polysomnography technologist training. But that school is over an hour north from me, near the New Hampshire border. So if I get car trouble... The other option I have is to take the alternate route of an Associate's Degree in respiratory therapy. I'm very squeamish, so that training program would be tough for me. But one of our other community colleges, which is only about twenty minutes away, offers that program. I would still be able to get work in a sleep lab, and I'd have an even wider market available to me.

I already have 46 credits toward a Liberal Arts degree, but some of it can't be transferred into that more specialized program.

First, I have to get brave enough to get all the immunizations required for the health services programs. Shots torture me. And I'm phobic that I'm going to contract a virus from them.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Now getting back to yellow thread topics:

Journalism -- Tonight's Fox 25 News (Boston) broadcast backed up what I've long suspected. MSM is concerned with ratings and only ratings, for the purpose of selling more products for their corporate sponsors. The station's producer allowed reporters David Wade and Maria Stephanos to rant for a moment about our Republican governor and lieutenant governor. And just last night they let David Wade express his frustration over one of our politicians wasting time working on a law to ban Marshmallow Fluff from being offered during lunch in school cafeterias, just for the sake of a photo op. In an angry tone, he said, "Housing is so expensive that people are leaving the state in droves, and the most important thing our politicians have to work on is banning Marshmallow Fluff from our school cafeterias???"

I think the stations' producers allow the reporters to express their personal opinions, as long as those opinions are already strongly and popularly held by viewers in that particular broadcast area. Otherwise, I think they'd put the kibosh on it.

Richard Yarnell said...

That made national news.

You have to admit, "Fluff" was too ripe a target to let go by.

I'm sure there are good nutritional reasons to ban "Fluff." LOL

Richard Yarnell said...

"I will stay in my little bit of heaven in the Pacific Northwest... We do not encourage people to move here, but in your case we could make an exception..."

No, no, no, no. Make one exception and there will be another. Or your neighbor will insist on making an exception and the next thing you know, we'll be over-run.

A visit would be nice, but please, be sure to have a return ticket.

As for the sunflowers, I drove back from NY just before they were harvested a couple of years ago. Such a lovely crop. I'd never seen literally hundreds of square miles of one crop (a lousy way to organize farming - monocropping on that scale). But faced with the miles of yellow carpeting, I could, momentarily, rise above my normal attitude and just revel in the site.

We just opened the third 80# sack of oil seed (the small seeds that come from those smallish sunflowers) to feed the flocks of now 12 species that are using our two window feeders.

Judy, I'm shocked that you are so soft in defense of the PNW.

ry

Judy B. said...

Monocropping of sunflowers is no different than the large wheat fields or corn fields..
What does make sunflowers different is that they volunteer, and in areas where there is no competition from corporate farms thay can take over and just be a wild crop.... or they can be plowed under and a cover crop can put nutrients back into the fields... unlike our own tree farms that plant one variety and do away with the much needed diversity, in what should be forests but are now corporate cash machines...
As for defending the Great Northwest...Oregon could use a few more good Democrats... your elections are far too close... Maybe some good activists like Marilyn and Christin could help...
Of course they would need to sign an agreement that they would not bring anyone with them...

christin m p in massachusetts said...

You're funny Richard:))
What you said reminds me of when I was living in New Hampshire in the mid-1980's, and the state was deemed best place to live in the country. People were moving there at the rate of around 35,000 per year from every corner of the U.S. to fill up all the good job openings. I had already been living there for a couple of years (my boyfriend grew up in Manchester), so I was "one of their own". But a lot of life-long residents had bumper stickers that said: "Welcome to New Hampshire. Now Go Home!"

No need to worry, though. I wouldn't be able to move to the PNW until I finish school. And my Mom won't want to go there, because she wants to move South like all the other snow birds her age (BTW, my Mom was born the same year as you were -- 1942. That was the birth year you posted, right?).

Another reason I won't be responsible if your region becomes overrun is that I don't plan on having any kids, and I'll keep mum about how nice it is to live there.

There is a good chance that someday I might settle there, though. It's because I love clouds and only a little bit of sunshine. I don't do well with a lot of sun because my skin is as light as a human's can be, short of being albino. I have to plan for any outdoor activities to begin in late afternoon or early evening, as I can sunburn horribly in a very short time during mid-day. Then I still end up without a tan, just peeling and feeling awful. I had the misfortune of inheriting that trait from the Celtic side of my family; the French Canadian side tans very well.

Uh oh, I just realized I went way off yellow thread topics again.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Just one more little off-topic thing, and then no more -- I promise.

I've decided to fast every other day (just juices). Is that okay or is it harmful? I want to get back down to 105 lbs. (I have 8 lbs. to go) -- not out of vanity, but I feel so, so energetic when I'm thin instead of medium weight.

Judy B. said...

Fastiing can be good for the soul as well as the body.. If you have never fasted before, i suggest you do some research before you start.

Do you do yoga? meditate? they all three work together... Many yoga teachers can help with hepling get you started on a good routine..
Good luck and don't over due..

dan said...

Christin, since your goal is to "get back down to 105 lbs" and to relocate, for your safety I'd recommend eliminating from consideration those states known to have high winds.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

LOL Dan!

Judy, I've always wanted to do yoga, but I need a coach to make sure I'm doing it right. The classes are kind of expensive. Maybe if I cut down on my casual driving, I can use the money I save to take yoga classes. And the best part would be that I'd stop contributing to global warming and toward fattening the wallets of the oil company CEO's all in one fell swoop.

Judy B. said...

Under the topic of media..LINK TV has had some great shows lately...
Since I do not usually have the time to sit down and watch a show from beginning to end, I got in the habit of taping them, but now I have gotten DISH TV's version of TIVO and is is childs play to program in what I want to see, and then have it archieved so I can watch it whenever. I love technology...
I reccommended one show "Who Owns Nature" with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for those of you who get Link TV...

dan said...

Judy, LINK TV and TIVO both sound great. I don't have either right now but I'd love to add them. I'm moving soon and I'm not sure what service I'll be getting at my new place.

dan said...

Our activist friend Debbie, never one to turn down a volunteer opportunity, has outdone herself this time. She has apparently committed herself to 18/20 hr. days Fri. & Sat. She asked me if I could make the blog aware of some issues before the FCC and to find a simple way to post a public comment. Here's a little background.

FCC/big media

The FCC home page is supposed to have a hyperlink to make commenting easy but I don't have time to check it out right now..maybe later.

Richard Yarnell said...

You can comment at the FCC website. There is a list of the commissioners with individual email addresses. I recommend sending a copy to each one. It is one of the most partisan of oversight boards on the planet and does seem to be partial to consolidated media.

I'm sorry to report that Gordon Smith, R of OR failed to save network neutrality in Committee where his "no" vote resulted in the tie that killed the ammendment.

Sorry. He's already received an excoriating note from yours truly.

ry

dan said...

Thanks Richard. I went to the FCC home page and clicked on some individual commissioners to read their views on broadcast ownership rules and other issues that are the subject of the public hearings.
I thought Commissioner Michael Copps explained the issues and the importance of the hearings very well.

Copps and Robbers

deb said...

Well, not quite that many hours, Dan...but, I have been busy this week.

The media consolidation meeting in Asheville was very good...and an estimated 400 people showed up. Most of them against further media consolidation and keeping the internet neutral. I wrote to each FCC commissioner and when the hyperlink shows up on their website I will write again. I also plan to send letters and call...I don't mind being a pain in the ass for a cause that will prevent a further erosion of democracy in our country. Squeaky wheels do get oiled;-)

deb said...

We Need Fewer Secrets

By Jimmy Carter

dan said...

Debbie, sounds like your Ashville neighbors gave the FCC Commissioners a *warm* reception. To have 400 people show up at a public hearing is very impressive.

Ex-President Carter is always worth listening to and he seems to get wiser every year.

dan said...

This article details some of the electric car projects in the works.

Elec car update

deb said...

Thanks for the link Dan. It is good to see that there are manufacturers going forward with the electric or PHEV car, and sad to see that I can't go out and buy one right now.

I still believe that photovoltaic panels on every roof feeding the grid needs to happen at the same time to provide the electricity for the cars. I believe that within 20 years we could change from oil for fuel to the sun for fuel for individual transportation.

Richard, you mentioned the danger in batteries. Do you have any info on the pollution risk for the newer lithium batteries? Perhaps as I "promote" electric cars on the web I should be promoting car battery responsibility.

Richard Yarnell said...

The biggest danger in batteries is in disposing of them. With those used in hybrids, believe me, they'll be recycled. (I've got my Costco Hearing Aid guy collecting those batteries and sending them in bulk back to the manufacturer. He's using it as a marketing gimmick. At a battery for each ear every 10 days or so, that's a lot of heavy metal.

There is some danger in lead acid batteries because they give off hydrogen during the charging cycle. But we largely manage that hazzard.

I don't think we should dedicate solar or any other energy source to a single purpose. If we, instead, put as much solar as we can on every surface oriented properly - and we should plan ahead on that - we can then use a sensible mix of sources.

ry

christin m p in massachusetts said...

The Tour de Sol, which took place in Saratoga Springs in May this year -- promotes solar cars, electric cars, and other alternatively fueled vehicles. It was cloudy and rainy every day during the week that event took place this year, so some of the purely solar-powered electric cars' running distances were limited. They would require a back-up remote alternative charging source, in order to be more practical.

For more information, go to nesea.org, which is headquartered in Greenfield, Mass.

dan said...

Thanks for the link Christin, the NESEA site was well worth a visit. Along with the car competition, they also promote the idea of puchasing "green energy certificates" to pay for their energy use. My relatives from Texas told me about a program they use which involves purchasing energy certificates from a wind generated elec. co. and useing them to pay their utility bill. I want to learn more about the program and if it is available in Michigan.

Anonymous said...

DEB,CHRISTIN,
40 to be exact. 3 daughters (single dad) two grandsons, 14 nieces and nephews...mom and dad, 5 brothers and sisters... military family,all of us. My grandfather came over in the old days, A man named Miles Standish, He was instrumental in the security of the settlers and the queens navy. The rest of the family just continued on serving and we are proud of our service. Rumor has it there is some Einstein in the tree, yet unsubstantiated, That probably explains why I exert so much effort challenging many of his theories... He did not possess many of the tools we do, I expect if challenged enough he will be proven inaccurate at some point, may as well be us.
You are probably correct about my daughter or one of her sidekicks at least, I do not know this for sure so we could be wrong, and it is just a matter of, I generally post in the AM (the only quiet time I generally enjoy) after I wake up and my dreams are still fresh... Which could be a good thing. In a lot of ways I have had experiences like your grandmother, some people call it freaky, some call for advice.
Several weeks ago I had copied a link to the university of colorado in which a professor has recently experimented with lights, lasers, mirrors and spinning looking for quarks...the jest of the article was he was starting to believe we could time travel this century, something he did not believe until his tests, he is a published and respected professor. I was going to refer it to ya'll and my home was struck by lightning(*go figure), pop goes the puter. The only thing left was a small flashing light in the upper left hand screen. At this time we are building a new one and I have lost the link and could not even find you folks, talk about frustrating, I thought I would never find this site again. Anyway the other day I remembered christophers site tropical embellishments and googled, his was the first site up and he had a link to breadcrusts. Thank you christopher.:-)
I have stumbled onto some other interesting topics and questions in reference to LBT and as soon as my new puter is up and running I will post them, I am on a friends computer so I have to go for now...glad I found ya'll...
John G. in GEORGIA

deb said...

Hi {{{JG}}}...you disappeared for so long that I've been wondering what was up. Sorry about the pc.

Are you referring to THE Miles Standish? He'd have to be maybe 8x great grandfather or even more...but the "Queen's navy" reference works.

I did some searching for the time travel you referenced. I came up with this. It's not an article at all, but I think that Dr. Wolfgang Ketterle or John D. MacArthur may be who you were talking about. I'll check some more when I have time.

I'm glad you found us again, too
:-)

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

You are welcome John. There was a bio of sorts of Einstein on PBS last night. Sorry didn't pay attention to which series it was, maybe Scientific American Frontiers.

It finally led up to the new String Theory which they think may solve the problem of having Einsteins major stuff ( note my technical proficency ) about Gravity and the movement of the bodies in the universe work with Quantum Mechanics or the physics of atoms. The two theories never could work side by side.

The String Theory is all about different types of energy waves that make up everything. Maybe your LBT is in there some where.

I do believe I found the show.
String Theory

Anonymous said...

Here it is, Univ. of Connecticut, thanks for the links. I can't wait to get my new computer finished.
http://www.sciencenewsblog.com/cgi-bin/snblog.pl?snblog=406061

John G. in Georgia
Deb, can I get that e-mail address again? The one you use to communicate off blog...
Christopher,
You have an awesome blog.

deb said...

JG, I'd be afraid of time travel. Other than knowing what to invest in and becoming very rich and buying up all of the media before Rupert Murdock did. And then we truly would have "liberal media" lol.

my e is debnjeff@peoplepc.com

Christopher, I very much enjoy seeing you around here:-)

Anonymous said...

When I think of time travel I do not think of it in the sense of a souped up delorean or millennium.
Two hundred years ago if you told the pioneers you could go from the east coast to west coast in 6 hours in comfort as opposed to 6 months braving all the dangers of the wild wild west you would have been laughed at by the educated populous. Today we can do this, which is time travel in a practical sense. However 6 hours from east to west is still slow in the context of space exploration. Imagine being able to travel to another galaxy, even if only to look, not actually nuts and bolts spaceships, in only 6 hours. Would this not be time travel? If we could perfect this method with lasers, lights and mirrors as I and the University of Conn. propose, who knows? Maybe then we could actually learn to go back and eat dinner with our mom when she was our age? However unpractical that sounds.
When I was a kid we were flying to an air base in the south pacific. It just so happens we crossed the International Date Line at precisely the same time it went from daylight to dark. I remember the rainbow of colors in the window as well as the pilot’s explanation that we would be crossing all these milestones at the same time. He stated he had never done this as a pilot in twenty five years of flying, he went on to say there was a day or at least part of one in which we would never live...change your clocks and your calendars...he called it our version of time travel. In reality we never left our seats. Time travel? Looking forward or backward in time like the movies or nostradom could be a pleasant byproduct, yet still unlikely this decade. From that perspective of time travel you should not be scared; we need you excited at the possibilities...

John G. in Georgia

Judy B. said...

JG... what do you know about bi-location, or being in two places or dimensions at the same time?//
I think it fits in with your LBT and time travel theories... As for me, it is not a theory, as I have experienced it...

Anonymous said...

I think I probably experienced something like that when I was burned as a kid. Recently I read an article on how we are starting to learn the dynamics of an autistic mind, how it is wired. Crazy as it sounds I do not believe the signals, electric or otherwise, our brains process as information are confined within the skull of the body. Perhaps the 80 or so percent of our sub-conscious minds have senses we do not understand or are aware they are there to understand. When people dream it is likely all the information we are reconciling is not necessarily information we were aware we were collecting...if that makes sense? It is also possible (arguably) people possess the ability to interpret information delivered in light waves (ESP) some have the ability to tap into it, others it just comes to. It is also possible certain events in our lives will enhance that ability (such as when I was burned or debs sis had a car accident) I do not believe it is magic or even supernatural, we just do not fully understand it yet. In the old days people thought the gods sent plague for which there were no cures, along came modern medicine. The gods may have sent the plagues, yet they ceased being as mysterious.
(There is also the possibility a tree was cut and released the hidden bug to sunlight, evolving it into something deadly to complex living organisms) light changes the basic evolution of most living organisms on contact. I have often wondered why different forms of light are not used in the medical profession more often. Every cure does not have to come from a pill...
I know I'm starting to get off topic and wander, I'll go for now...

John G. in Georgia

christin m p in massachusetts said...

I have often wondered why different forms of light are not used in the medical profession more often. Every cure does not have to come from a pill...
I know I'm starting to get off topic and wander, I'll go for now...


No no, JG,
I, for one, like the direction you wandered in there. Any time you want to tell us more about the possibilities in using light forms to cure illnesses, I'd be really interested to know about it. Pills are just too risky, with all their side-effects, boomerang effects, addictions, etc. In fact, I'd like to know about any scientific discoveries or theories you know of, that offer alternatives to taking foreign substances into the body.

deb said...

I've been out of town to a funeral for my Mom's first cousin. He was one of the people that your were referring to JG. He had savant autism, like "Rain Man". Dustin Hoffman did an excelllent job of portraying savant autism with the side to side steps, the monotone voice and the repetitive phrases. My cousin had a good life and he will be missed.

I am excited about the algae because I am thinking in "baby steps". Nobody is going to pull the plug on fertilizer...it just won't happen, at least anytime soon. We can educate people on the effects and encourage less use, but in the mean time we have streams, rivers and gulf that are growing algae that takes the oxygen out of the water when it dies. So the reality is that the water has too much nitrogen and we need fuel. I am excited about the prospects because algae can be 1/2 oil by volume, it lives in nitrogen enriched water which we have plenty of, cleans the water and also produces oxygen during it's growth phase. I believe that farming algae along our rivers would work. Preferrably close to cities where oxygen is most needed. I'm not sure that this is a good idea, though, because I haven't read enough about it. I question whether it burns "clean" and how efficient algae oil is. I'm just thinking on it here, but always trying to find alternatives that are doable with what we already have and a realistic way to effectively take us out of the fossil fuel age.

Solar feeding the grid, electric cars and phevs, but that leaves the phev cars and all of the big trucks needing fuel...maybe algae would not only fuel them but clean the water and make oxygen to boot.

JG, enjoyed your story about crossing the international date line. It would be interesting to "see" through time.

Christin, I agree that medicine focusses too much on pharmaceuticals and not enough research is being done on alternatives. It's a lot like the fuel industry...alternatives aren't good for big business.

OK Judy...you have me curious about being in 2 places at once. Fascinating...care to share?

Thanks for the string theory link Christopher. Things like that are somewhat beyond my abilty to comprehend...but I get glimpses of understanding and always enjoy challenging my brain.

Judy B. said...

Bi-location as a theory is hard to grasp; as are most "unbelievable" concepts..
There is an old saying, "I'll believe it when I see it" .. that saying holds us in place, making our beliefs stronger than reality..

When you are ready to see it, you WILL believe it..

Readiness and willingness to accept change are rapidly followed by a teacher to bring about that change..

The answet to all questions lies in "the word"

Anonymous said...

"I, for one, like the direction you wandered in there. Any time you want to tell us more about the possibilities in using light forms to cure illnesses"

Think of light beams as layers. As it passes through certain elements it changes. Our atmosphere shields us from many harmful effects of sunlight, yet not all. It would be interesting to see what impact light above the atmosphere has on certain viruses and illnesses, Then recreate those effects (if beneficial) in medicine. I will send some interesting links when I finish my new puter.

"He was one of the people that your were referring to JG. He had savant autism,"

Somehow I think I already knew this...

"Bi-location as a theory is hard to grasp; as are most "unbelievable" concepts.."

"It would be interesting to "see" through time."


...

John G. in Georgia

Judy B. said...

In addition to using LBT to cure illnesses, we should be spending much more "time" exploring "the word" as a cure..

Richard Yarnell said...

We already do use light in some medical therapies:

Jaundice in newborns is treated in light boxes;

Exposure to sunlight helps the body produce vitamin D;

Depression is sometimes treated with exposure to intense full spectrum light;

Lasers of all kinds are being used as tools (cutters and to cauterize) and to harden certain materials used in dentistry;

The list goes on.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

Judy what is "the word"?

Judy B. said...

"the word"... it all depends on what you believe... I will give you my rendition..

Many (most) spiritual traditions and myths have a lot in common...

"In the beginning" there was/is some some variation of "the word"...

My take on "the word" is sound...
Whether it is the sound of the "big bang", or God's voice, the sound sent out a vibration that went to all 'corners' of the universe. That sound still vibrates and is a part of everything...

How that sound (the word) is coded in our dna makes us (in part) who we are...

We can re-program our dna (don't get skeptical on me) by changing the vibration of the music we listen too...

Sound (the word) is closely tied to our emotions... There are several healing modalities that use sound... and I do not mean just the western medical model of ultra-sound, or sound (vibrations)used to brreak up gall stones in the body...

I am talking about a much older version of sound-vibrational healing practiced through out the world.. drumming , singing, wailing... musical instruments of all kinds... they all have a vibration all their own, and can be used for good or not so good....

It is verry important to be aware of the sounds you take in, and what you do with the sounds...

I can go on and on about this.. but i think you get the just...

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

Judy, Yes I get the jist of it. I see it as energy with sound being one manifestation of that energy. The same energy that runs the universe exists within and runs each and every one of us. It is what we are made of.

BUT and this is the big BUT, a human being is like a single atom of the bigger whole. Alone or even collectively as a species we do not posess enough knowing of the whole being, the universe to always be in tune with that energy or even to control it when we think we feel it.

That energy is in us but we are not the source. We do not own it.

Judy B. said...

"owning" it is not necessary... To be able to tap into it "at will" unlocks great potential...

Energy healing is as old as the hills... Our "civilized" world has just lost touch with the ancient ways. These methods are common place in the Orient, and are making a great comeback into society (as we become less and less enamored with convential medicine)...

"Hands on" healing, energy healing, vibrational healing, etc all have similar components, just different methodology...

Are you familiar with the energy centers of the body (chakras)???
or with "emotional release" massage??, or accupuncture/accuprressure??
Do you meditate?? Have you felt the energy build up in your body and not know what to do with it??

There are methods to channel that energy, and those methods mostly come from the ancients; we are just trying to reconnect with the "power" that we have lost...

I agree that we (the carbon based unit known as human beings) are a long way from possessing the knowledge to tap into the universal flow.. but it really isn't about knowledge... it is about wisdom... and tapping that wisdom from within and ALLOWING it to come forth...

"Be still, and know I AM GOD"

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Judy,
Do you think that when we are listening to our favorite music, that the lyrics can affect our well-being in the same way that the sound vibrations do. If that's the case, it would explain why I've been feeling the way I have been lately. To give you some idea of what I mean, here are links to lyrics of the kinds of (hard rock) songs I've been listening to lately:

Aenima by Tool

and:

One by Metallica

christin m p in massachusetts said...

I also want to say that I do believe very strongly in all of those alternative healing therapies. I have experienced acupressure applied to my feet -- not by a trained professional, but by a very good longtime male friend who happened to have a natural talent for it. The thing that surprised me the most about its effects, is that it would open my lungs way up -- that is, it would stimulate involuntary deep breathing. Whenever I deliberately take deep breaths, it feels like I'm making a lot of effort to do so. But the deep breaths induced by the acupressure were wonderfully effortless. Almost instantly, I would feel so much more awake and alive, and that feeling would stay with me until bedtime.

Richard Yarnell said...

It's called love, or at least lust. The guy's a keeper. ;o

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Well, I guess it was love -- or lust -- in part. But I swear the acupressure itself was nothing short of divine... I'm telling you, you've got to try it.

Anyway, some hussy decided he was a keeper too. And as I didn't maintain a close watch (I'll never make that mistake again), she -- after a very long chase -- eventually lassoed him. She fought dirty and I gave her a good run for her money. Then she resorted to one of the oldest methods in the book... That being said, I should probably feel guilty about calling the mother of his children a hussy;)

I know that doesn't exactly make him a saint, either, and I myself was guilty of "being there" more in spirit than in person.

Now, I'm sure this is all way too much information, and I know I probably still sound bitter, but seriously, I'm able to joke about it now. (Was that an oxymoron?) Those two little guys (fraternal twin boys) are just so adorable, it was well worth the sacrifice.

I know I sullied up this thread, but after all, one of the themes for the yellow thread is yellow journalism... So, technically, I'm still on topic.

But if one of the administrators of this blog wants to delete this post for inappropriate content, go ahead... I'll probably delete it myself tomorrow anyway, after reading it when I'm more wide-awake.

Judy B. said...

Christin, I do believe that you and your friend stumbled onto
a practice called Reflexology, which is basically a form of foot massage... but there is much more to it.
Each location on the foot reflects back to another location in the body. By applying pressure to a point on the foot, energy channels can be opened up in the corresponding part of the body.

This is a great healing modality.
One of the biggest causes of
dis-ease is blocked energy. Accupuncture, actupressure, massage, reflexology, yoga etc., are all methods of unblocking that energy and assist in self healing.

Judy B. said...

Yes, christin, I do believe that words affect us too. And words put to music can have a multiple effect...
The lyrics to those two "songs" are certainly depressing, so if you are listening to a lot of music like that and feeling depressed it could certainly be a part of the cause... and if not the cause it can certainly add to the feelings...
Why don't you try cutting out the hard rock for a while and find some good up-beat show tunes... or some positive spirituals, or New Age music...

I once took a course titled "the Language of the Masters"(not to be confused with Mastering Language)... I credit that course with a lot of the positives in my life. The creator of that course is Robert Tennyson Stevens... and he hails from back east somewhere..
If he ever runs accross your radar screen, I would spend the money and atttend... Good Stuff...

dan said...

Good news Christin. This male may not measure up to your old boyfriend but he travels a lot and next time he passes through your state, maybe he'll be willing to give you one of his famous neck massages.

The impulsive masseur

For a short video, click on the John Stewart link.

Richard Yarnell said...

Doesn't he just make you proud to have him as our representative to the world? Aside from his Anglo-Saxon expletive (I'll be they double the FCC's fine if any network fails to bleep it) did you like the way he was chewing, open mouthed, that buttered roll while poor Blair leaned over him just before turning off the mic? Then that back-rub that seemed to make the German Chancellor a tad more than unfofortable.

Now, to really make your day. Before it disappears, take a look at Ted Koppel's Op-Ed piece in today's NYTimes.

We're on such a roll....

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

The stealth massage is way more weird than saying shit about Syria. I think it relates to his class clown smirking persona. It makes my skin crawl that this man is the face to the world of America.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Please don't anyone see this as defending Bush as an individual... But I think that particular slip-up has more to do with the casual and emotionally open nature of our world today...

Even in workplaces, over the years a lot of us women have gotten those stealth massages from male co-workers -- at least from some of the ones we know very well.

Despite all the talk of sexual harrassment, that kind of milder stuff still happens on a semi-regular basis -- those occasional mini-massages, along with office flirting and innuendos and such. But most workers know enough not to do it in front of visitors or newcomers -- or more sensitive co-workers.

I suppose everyone would think in an entirely different direction if Bush were found to have spontaneously massaged, say -- Condie's neck, if they were alone working late or something... (I just checked -- Yup, this is still the yellow thread.)

But seriously, in fairness I can almost see why he was off his guard -- I mean, he's on TV almost every waking minute of his life... That probably explains his unflinching use of the expletive on camera too.

Cheryl said...

Bush and Merkel have just met. They can't be close friends. The look on her face says it all.

Seeing that video brought back memories of a former boss. He was fond of stealth massages on men and women, yanking on men's pants, and yelling insults across the room. To know him was to despise him. He never tried it on me though. I think that even that dense clod suspected that I would have whacked him and filed charges.

deb said...

Christin,
I don't agree. We are paying this guy $400,000 a year to represent the country. If I hired someone for that salary to act professional in public I would expect him/her to do so. He's disgusting!

Clinton made 200K a year, btw. One of the first things Congress did was to increase the prez salary.

As far as being in the limelight...it comes with the job. However, notice that clips like this aren't making it to mainstream TV, whereas every slip-up that Clinton had did make it to mainstream TV.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

All our local news stations aired it -- they just feed consumers whatever they think will appeal to them $$$. They know that the majority of people in the South would be up in arms if they showed Bush in such an unflattering light. There is a major difference between what MSM shows us here and what they show people in more conservative parts of the country. For example, we have a TV ad for hair care products that features a gay male hairstylist. You can probably imagine what the reaction would be from TV viewers in conservative regions, if they were to air that advertisement there. It would be financial suicide -- at least.

I always measure Bush's faux pas against his warmongering and his allegiance to anyone who would happily bleed the working class dry. Those social blunders of his appear microscopic in comparison.

Something else that dwarfed that particular social impropriety of his in my eyes is that, for a couple of years, I worked for a creepy boss who was a lot like the one Cheryl described. He would warn each of us (his female employees) that he would sign our last time card if we didn't go out with him after work on Friday nights. Since I was forewarned, the first time he approached me about it, I told him I didn't feel well, and then arranged for my boyfriend to drop me off and pick me up from work on Fridays thereafter. Some of the women had no protection whatsoever from him. He didn't leave out the men either. In their case, he would give them spy-and-snitch assignments, and he would threaten them with firing if they refused his orders. One of the women finally went to HR to report the abuses. Apparently, he had some dirt on people in high places in that company (a major worldwide corporation, BTW) because he was neither reprimanded nor fired. Instead, he was quietly transferred to another plant at an even shorter commuting distance from his home. So, basically, he was rewarded for his transgressions.

Anyway, the late night TV shows are going to have a ball with this -- Bush's latest screw-up -- for some time to come.

deb said...

Christin, It really is good to know that some of our media isn't in the pocket of this administration. Do they freely discuss the pros and cons of the war?

Bill Archer wrote a column about my Mom's cousin Woodson

dan said...

Debbie, Woodson would have been a fasinating person to know. Did you have the opportunity to meet him? Is your mother the "Ramona" in the story?

deb said...

Aunt Sadie in the story is my Granny's sister. There were 6 sisters and they were all extremely close. My Mom (Ramona) is as close to her cousins as many people are to siblings. One of her aunts' was a Rosie the Riveter during the war in Maryland and Granny kept her kids when they were out of school...so you should hear all of the stories that the cousins tell. I've always known Woodson...since in many ways he was childlike, he was sent outside with us "grandkids" rather than stay with the rest of the aunts, uncles, and cousins when we all got together.

One of the things that Bill Archer didn't pick up on was that Woodson could recall conversations almost verbatim from the time he was a little kid. The last time I visited him (since I moved here I was actually the closest relative by distance) he was telling me statements made by my Grandfather who died when I was 2. I wish I had gone out and bought a tape recorder.

Just wanted to share.

dan said...

Debbie, thanks for sharing your memories of Woodson. You're the first person I've encountered that had conversations with a savant. I'm sure I would have enjoyed meeting Woodson.

deb said...

This is interesting...Resonant Light Technology

Judy B. said...

Light and sound!!!
Well what do you know...
Thanks Deb...

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Judy,
What do you think about colors being used to alter our emotional states? Do you believe that a particular color would have the same effect on everyone, or do you think that each color can have a different effect on different people?

For example, most people say they feel somber on gray, cloudy days. But those kinds of days make me feel very peaceful.

Indoors, the color white has the same soothing effect on me. The walls and trim and doors of my bedroom are completely white, and all my bedding is white too. Not the floor, though -- it's hardwood with kind of a golden finish (still very soothing). And I have an antique lamp with an ecru-white shade. I also like soft "white noise", so I usually keep a small fan running when I'm at home -- even when the weather is cooler. Sometimes just kicking back on the bed with my eyes open, passively drinking in all the white, puts me into a blissful, meditative state. I can actually feel my heartbeat slow way down.

I was never able to feel that way whenever my bedroom's decor was "busier" or too brightly colored. I lived in one other place that had an antique white bedroom, and that one had the same soothing effect on me as this one does.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

That show about the String Theory just came on, on PBS. I'm going to go watch it now.

Richard Yarnell said...

Some years ago, there was a study of the correct color to use to calm prisoners. The color, though not strictly pink, was very close to it.

Just about everybody painted intake facilities pink and it worked. So, of course, they ordered more pink paint and started in on cells and cafeterias, showers, heads, you name it.

It turned out that while initial exposer to the color was calming (scientifically proven) longer exposure made men mad. And violent, or at least intractable.

Richard Yarnell said...

Explain string theory to us and give an example how it will affect our lives.

Thank you.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

I think too much pink (any shade) would drive me mad too. At the very least, it would make me queazy. In fact, I find too much of any color indoors (except shades of white) to be aesthetically unappealing. I like to have a balance of colors, as well as a balance of light and dark objects, smooth and raised textures, and a wide range of flat to glossy finishes on objects in all the other rooms of the house, except the bedrooms.

Regarding string theory: I couldn't get a clear picture from the way the scientists explained it. I mean, it may very well affect our lives, but in order to understand a theory, I have to see exactly how it will affect our lives.

Maybe John from Georgia can translate it for us.

Judy B. said...

About colors....
It is the belief of many that there are 7 primary energy centers in our body(although there are a lot more)...
These centers are called chakras. Each chakra has a color associated with it, and a sound...

Depending on where you are in your life, different chakras are more or less "in charge"... You can "work" on that chakra by using the color and the sound associated with it...

It then makes some sense that your white room and white noise could put you into a meditative state...

As you advance from the base chakra (survival) to the crown chakra (universal energy) you go thru your own unfolding.

It also makes sense then that the pink color in prisons could work for a time and then have a different effect..

deb said...

Richard, Maybe string theory will have no effect...so why should we study the stuff?

1 because it is there

2 I imagine that the study of electromagnetic waves was considered unimportant in 1800 (fill in any technology and any date prior to it's discovery)

On a scale of 1-10, of things that I consider important, it only gets a 1 or 2...however, I enjoy trying to stretch my brain a bit...and stuff like this is often a welcome distraction to the fiasco the party in power has inflicted on the country and other parts of the world.

And, really, it is all about imagining and dreaming of safer, healthier and environmentally friendly ways of obtaining energy (at least in my mind).

I, also, feel that somehow we are making a difference on our little blog. I significantly felt it with the FEMA article and then we all wrote letters, helped spread that news around the country and then the policy was changed.

I feel that possibly some of our delving into unknown territory could possibly uncover something that may be of benefit. If that were to happen you, Richard, would be the one of us that could easily recognize fact from fiction. So, please, keep telling us that we are playing with bubbles...but, if YOU were ever to see a floating pebble in the mix, we might just be on to something:)

BTW, did you look at these artifacts made of stone? ADVANCED MACHINING IN ANCIENT EGYPT

Richard Yarnell said...

Yes, I did look at them.

Did anyone else watch the Nova pyramid demo?

More on String Theory later.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

I have seen several of the How to build a Pyramid shows. Rollers for the blocks, long ramps to get to the top and a lot of human labor make it very doable by ancient humans without any outer planetary help. They may have been inspired by the spiritual and mysterious but that came from within the human spirit.

String Theory is a whole other matter. I watched a couple of shows in that series. They are talking about what makes up sub-atomic particles, smaller than quarks, the smallest of the small. Physics was a difficult subject for me.

The best I can offer is that they are talking about the energy that runs the universe at the most basic elemental level. If we can understand that, how it works, how to manipulate it and thus use it we may be onto something powerful.

Throughout this series they kept saying this is strictly theory and that it is not proveable because they have no instuments to detect these strings and thus can not do experiments and use the scientific method to prove the theory. I got the impression the theory is largely based on mathematic calculations that allowed Einsteins Theory of Relativity, or some such to make sense with the physics of Quantum Mechanics where his theory began to break down.

Judy B. said...

On the pyramids,,, I have watched most of the shows that have been aired... What I understand is that there is a lot of speculation and interest about how they were built... Many scientific theories, some of which may be the truth... are continually being tested and refined... I am not a scientist, and certainly do not have the one true answer...

I am open to some other possibilities though.... One of them being that the ancients were much more evolved technologically than we give them credit for....
The pyramids, (and other structures) leave some areas for questioning, if you are into that sort of thing...

For myself, I marvel at their being, wonder about their origin, and simply accept that we do not ...as of yet... have the answers... and maybe never will...


that they obvious

Judy B. said...

Christopher, your statement "The best I can offer is that they are talking about the energy that runs the universe at the most basic elemental level. If we can understand that, how it works, how to manipulate it and thus use it we may be onto something powerful." ... is , I beleive on the right track...

Sometimes, the most obvious answer is right in front of our face, and yet because we do not have scientific proof, we refuse to accept it...

In the case of tapping that energy, and "manipulating" it,... it is being done by thousands )millions) of people all the time.

The Western (medical) model is aware of the enrgy that flows in our body, and yet is unwilling to accept it as a healing force because it is not understood and has no scientific proof to back it up...

The Eastern model accepts that the energy running in our body can become blocked and cause dis-ease (pain). And that the way to relieve that pain is to unblock the channel and let the energy run freely. Their model uses different methods (accupuncture) to open channels and "manipulate" the energy... I am sure that they do not all "understand" how it works but they do accept it, and learn how to "manipulate" it...

From the East we can learn much...

Anonymous said...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/gizahistory.html

String theory...everything is connected. May I get back to that one.
I have since the last time I posted broken my back,crushed lumbars or whatever. It hurts beyond belief. do not know when I will be able to post again.
Had another experience with LBT, freaked out the entire ICU nursing staff. Needless to say they will not be forgetting me anytime soon. Killed the power to the entire MCCG hospital as a result(verifiable). This I am told has never happened before. This is all I can do for now. Thanx for everything guys. I think of you often...
your friend jg
p.s. seen a game show where they explained what ... meant.
that is not what I meant though...

Anonymous said...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/gizahistory.html

http://.pbs.org/
wgbh/nova/pyramid/
explore/gizahistory.html

deb said...

JG, HOW HORRIBLE!!! My thoughts and prayers are with you for a speedy recovery. If you would like for me to research any treatments or techniques that might be helpful to you just let me know.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

That is terrible news John G. Now is the time to put your faith into the unknown powers of the body and universe to help the doctors heal you. The pain will make it difficult but try to be still and listen to your inner voice when decisions need to be made.

The LBT is Light Beam Technology right? I would like to hear more about this power outage.

Judy B. said...

JG...I AM sending you healing energy....

Your comment..."String theory...everything is connected. May I get back to that one."

My previous post to Christopher was about that 'connection'... and it was about string theory... and LBT... and the healing energy that I am sending you...

We really cannot separate one from the other...

I understand completely about you blowing out the lights... I use to do it regularly... To this day I cannot wear a watch... And i have to be real creful around my computer... LBT in action!!!

dan said...

JG, I hope the pain from your back injury is abating and that you'll be able to have a full recovery. Keep us posted when you're able.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Deb,
Have you been in touch with John over the past week to find out if his back is going to get better? I'm scared of the thought of serious back injuries, because it seems like no one ever completely recovers from them. I can imagine the pain must be excruciating. I've strained the muscles in my back more than a few times from shoveling heavy snow during and after blizzards, and for the next couple of days afterward, it feels torturesome. But at least muscles heal with rest. The other parts of the back seem to be an altogether different story.

deb said...

Christin, JG never did send me an e, so I do not know how he is doing.

JG? How are you faring? My thoughts and prayers are still with you.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for the prayers and lbt all. It seems to be working. I am focused on priorities right now, as I am about 50% of my normal capabilities. Walking, sitting, driving all things I used to take for granted very difficult right now.
Christopher I do not believe I caused the power outage.
About 4 am my second or third day in, the nurse said I had taken all wires tubes monitors etc off and threw on the floor, giving them a false reading at the nurses station. They said they came in found me moving around almost in my sleep and when they asked why I took them off I stated they no longer worked because the power was out. It was not and they informed me if the power were out the back up generators would kick in, after all it was a hospital. To which I replied the generators did not work. The nurse replied the power has never gone out in the entire hospital at once it was designed not to, and the generators had always worked when areas experienced outages.
She was certain I was “dreaming” and being non-cooperative.
This incident was noted in my chart. At 4:15 pm the next afternoon a popcorn storm came through and the power in the “entire” hospital went out for approximately 15 minutes and you guessed it, the back up generators did not work.
My next visit was from 2 doctors and three nurses inquiring about what I remembered about the previous morning, which was very little. LBT?
Thanx again for the prayers. It’s working.
Your friend John G. in Ga.

p.s. Deb,
do you know anyone in the healthcare profession? if so, what is the normal procedure for a patient brought in by med evac with acute back pain and loss of use of legs? would being transferred from a gurney to a wheel chair and sitting for 6 hours be prudent?

Cheryl said...

It's probably not prudent, but I think it's becoming more and more common. Waiting times for emergency rooms have been going up lately. My guess is staff downsizing.

A few years ago, my husband had a kidney stone. I took him to the ER in extreme pain. After a long wait, he couldn't stand to sit in the wheel chair anymore. He fell to the floor writhing in pain. A nurse soon came by, but not to help. She just told him that it was against hospital rules for him to be on the floor. Then she walked off. He lived, but ended up with a staff infection from the IV.

deb said...

JG, When I posted on the Purple Thread earlier I was out of time and didn't read this Yellow one. I don't have to be in the medical profession to know that sitting you in a wheel chair was the wrong thing to do...same goes for Cheryl's husband writhing in the floor in pain.

I was a home teacher for babies and toddlers' with special needs. Many of the kids had cerebral palsy with limited mobility. I do know that nerve connections can be stregnthened. If there is any connection then it must be used, repeatedly. It takes about 6 months of "training" for that connection to reach its fullest potential.

Do little things like pointing the toes up then down, ankles side to side and then around...really any possible movement and just keep doing it constantly, of course don't damage any area that is healing.

Make sure that you have enough vitamin E. Normally you might get enough from being in the sun...but being laid up you probably won't get as much sun. Vitamin E is necessary to heal bone.

Fascinating about the ESP experience!

Judy B. said...

John G.
Reiki (like prayer) is a healing energy that can be sent to distant willing recipients. With your permission, I will put you in a Reiki healing circle.

I have a thought about your LBT/ESP experience. According to many teachings, what we focus on expands. You have been focused on LBT for some "time"... so your injury and the pain(pills) associalted with it could have made you "loose control" of reality as we usually experience it, and then connect with some other force (LBT?)and move forward in time...

LBT could certainly be in the time realm... which could explain why you had the ESP/deja vu experience.

Regardless of the reason for your experience, I wish you a speedy recovery. You will remain in my thoughts and prayers...

Anonymous said...

That's what I figured Deb...
Thank you I will file a grievance with the hospital administrator. I must say the doctor's and ICU nurses displayed a tremendous amount of compassion and professionalism once I was processed in and under their care. The wait staff however leaves much to be desired. I hope I can effect enough change so other patients do not have to endure the ER waiting room as it is. I hope this particular hospital is not systemic of ER healthcare in our country.
Thank you Judy, At this point I am willing to try anything to get back to some sense of normalcy. between PT, doctor's visits and neurosurgeons My routines lately would exhaust me if I were healthy.
I have also noticed there is not consistent communication between caregivers so it has been to my advantage to create and maintain a file.
The latest issue of discover magazine has some interesting articles about string theory, stephen hawkins and the mars mission so if you have an ooportunity give it a look. I think there is even an article about us...see if you can find it.
thank you Dan, Cheryl, Richard, Christina and christopher.
Richard I still think often about my last question, if you could give some insight. What would be the result of more space than time and matter to fill it or vice versa?
Also, is it possible our solar system is presently in some sort of event horizon of a black hole?

Your friend J.G.

deb said...

JG, perhaps what you are asking is beyong the scope of what anyone has the capability of knowing, based upon our current knowledge. I think (I don't come close to being a physicist) that putting too much matter into too small a space causes an explosion...except in the case of a black hole where the pressure is so great that the walls that separate atomic particles implode on themselves and everything becomes a tiny dot. As far as earth being on the verge of a black hole I'd say the answer is no. Scientists can determine where black holes are, and they are far away...and by far I mean in light year terms...nothing that will affect us in this lifetime.

I am completely guessing that I didn't correctly answer your question...what you are envisioning is (I'm sure) way past anything I understand.

The real danger for earth is our assuming that people can continue to burn everything that burns and still maintain an atmosphere.

And speaking of reversing the trend to destroy the atmosphere...Toyota PHEV Rumored I am writing every car manufacturer and letting them know that I will not buy another car until I can plug it in.

Richard, in regards to the wind turbine in a tunnel where the heated air comes in from the side...could it go on a roof where the roof heats the air? Is it something that I could buy the parts for and do myself? Would a small scale application produce enough energy to power a house? In my state if I feed the grid I am compensated. If I personally figured out a way to generate solar power it would feed the grid in the day when I am gone, but I would take from the grid in the evening and night.

Judy B. said...

JG... I think you must be feeling better... since you are back to making astute observations... and asking interesting questions....
Keep your spirit up... and breath into the pain...

deb said...

JG, Is this the article about us? Peer Review: Invading Our Own Privacy

Anonymous said...

Deb,
There is a good reason I asked about our solar system being in some sort of event horizon...
I will get back to that.
This was a very interesting article you linked us to and I guess it could describe us, yet I was referring to the one in the magazine under reviews titled TANGLED UP IN STRINGS. It led me to ask Richard about the theory of relativity. We as Einstein assume with this theory all things are equal...what if there were more of these strings of energy than time or matter for them to effect? would that define dark energy? string theory is so complex we may never define it, yet following Richards principals, simple is best...get rid of everything but the strings and what is left? piece of cake:-)
Judy B thanx again! as opposed to three weeks ago I am a new person, body and soul. The pain has subsided, it is more of a discomfort when the swelling starts, yet I find relief in your prayers, physical therapy, this wierd patch they apply every 24 hours and the limited time reading your posts. thanx again.
Your friend J.G.
P.S. Deb I WILL E soon, As soon as my new puter is ready, I borrow other peoples right now and do not know how to get to my blog or e mail...sorry.
tangled up in strings...

deb said...

JG, good to hear that you are feeling better...don't let that fool you into doing more than you should! It is going to take time...lots of time to heal and one wrong move could set you back. Take very good care of ourself, my friend!!!

I will check out the string article when I get a chance.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

This news article caught my attention when I went to check my email:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060822/ap_on_re_eu/spain_math_genius

especially this part:

Academics have been studying Perelman's proof since he left the first of three papers on it on a math Web site in Nov. 2002. Normal procedure would have been to seek publication in a peer-approved journal.

It just goes to show how incredibly diverse human thinking patterns can be

Richard Yarnell said...

He's a weird guy. He just turned down the $Million dollar prize that's been on the table for a long time. And he's back living in the woods in Russia after presenting his proofs just once in various places. He also turned down offers at Stanford, Cal Tech, Harvard and MIT.

But then, anyone who can bend their minds around that kind of math (it has to do with defining the boundary of a three dimensional shape in mathematical terms that allow the shape to be changed all the while storing the original definition. Or something like that.

Cheryl said...

I heard the funniest thing on NPR yesterday. A seafood company in Nova Scotia hasn't been able to sell its lobsters to travelers because the ice gel packs they pack them in have been banned. They found a way around it. They now use frozen peas and carrots to keep the food cold.

When asked if they sell fresh or cooked lobsters, he replied both. Apparently there is no problem with bringing live lobsters on a plane. Lipstick dangerous, lobsters safe. If I could draw, I would make a cartoon of hijackers taking over a plane with lobsters.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5705299

Anonymous said...

PLUTO has been kicked to the curb...:-(

What are the chances pluto is the leftover core of a much larger body? Out of 2500 scientists at this convention only 300 showed up to vote PLUTO out...What a crock!
We need to start a pro PLUTO fan club and have this decision reversed. Do you think any consideration was given to the cost to the educational system which now has to rewrite all these text books? My 4 yr old daughter is upset because she has a minature solar system and PLUTO was "her" pet planet. Anyway she has made it perfectly clear it stays where it is and it "is" a planet.

Your friend, John G.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

Pluto is now classified as a mini-planet. The two criteria they used was that it have enough mass for gravity to make it round and that it was the biggest kid in the neighborhood.

Pluto is round but they have found a larger round body close by, Xena I think is the name and expect to find many more mini-planets in the same orbital zone. They think one guy has already found many and just hasn't published yet.

By their definition of planet Pluto has too many neighbors.

Richard Yarnell said...

Pluto the planette.

I have always harbored the suspicion that Pluto was captured by the Sun. I'm sure someone can tell me whether its orbit has been run retrograde long enough to determine whether it's inclined orbit was caused by encounter with Neptune or another body that we know about. If not, it seems to me that one of the crucial elements of the definition was left on the table, that a planet is a spherical body accreted from the debris disk of the star around which it revolves. Pluto's 17 degree of the ecliptic and markedly eliptical orbit suggest capture.

OTOH, if a planet is supposed to be able to clear out its own orbit, how did Neptune past muster. It may still be a matter of time, but so far it hasn't disposed of Pluto, now has it?

My favorite reaction to the Society's action yesterday: Mrs Tombough saying that she felt she'd just lost her job.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Cheryl,
I wish you could draw -- That'd be a funny cartoon.

I also enjoyed listening to the NPR interview -- I like to hear that familiar Nova Scotia dialect. You can easily detect in it both the French-Acadien accent and the light Scottish brogue.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Okay you guys, don't laugh. But for the thirteen years that I've been reading predictive astrology, Pluto hasn't failed yet to stir up exactly the kinds of events it's supposed to in my life and in the lives of people close to me, whenever it has been at exact angles (conjunction - 0 degrees, meaning in the same degree of the same sign as; sextile - 60 deg, exactly two signs apart; square - 90 deg, exactly three signs apart; trine - 120 deg, four signs apart; or opposition - 180 deg, six signs apart) relative to the positions of each of our birth planets and luminaries (Sun and Moon), as well as each of our progressed planets and progressed luminaries. There are many other aspects as well, but those five are said to have the strongest influences. I know it can't be a matter of self-fulfilling prophesy, because I don't usually tell the people close to me what is supposed to be taking place in their lives at any given time. Instead, I observe what is happening to them, and so far the books' predictions have always been confirmed.

Although I'm positive this would never back up Pluto's status as a planet in the view of astronomers and other scholars, I'm pretty certain that astrologers aren't going to let it go. As far away and tiny as Pluto is, it seems to be more powerful astrologically (permanently life-altering) than any of the other outer planets -- from Jupiter on out. Perhaps it's because it remains in the same degree of the same sign for a much longer period of time than the other planets do, save for Neptune. Neptune has more of a "rose colored glasses" effect (such as in romance and creativity with favorable aspects), or a hallucinatory effect (as with drugs, alcohol, or disillusionment with challenging aspects). Pluto has more of an upheaval effect (such as with marriage, spiritual evolution/rebirth, divorce, serious illness, mysterious disappearance, sometimes physical death of the self or the loved one...)

Richard Yarnell said...

Up front: I don't believe for a minute that either the constellations or the planets influence human behavior except to the extent the humans think they do. That said, the history of astrology is sort of interesting. (Unfortunately, since, over time, the houses are now about one sextile out of sync with ancient times, there's more evidence that the predictive powers are mostly self-fulfilling prophecies or coincidence.)

How did those planets that weren't discovered until the modern era when large telecsopes become common, figure into the charts. Until 1930, no one knew there was a Ploto; until 1846 for Neptune (Galileo observed it in 1612 but thought it was a star since he found it on the day it's apparent orbit became retrograde; Uranus was discovered in 1781. Even then, those last three planets cannot be seen without a telescope.

I'm just curious, since until 1930, Astrologers weren't playing with a full deck.

Anonymous said...

"I don't believe for a minute that either the constellations or the planets influence human behavior except to the extent the humans think they do"

The moon? it effects tidal forces...understanding the sizes of planets and a little of string theory, don't you think it possible certain weather events and mother nature on earth are influenced by other celestial bodies within (outside of) our solar system? if so, would it not br fair to say those same forces effect life forms?
Other than that I do not have a clue what you guys just said other than Christopher...
Is Pluto in or out?

John G.

Judy B. said...

Richard, you are so intelligent... so wise...so practical... so scientific...... and yet I will put my Crone (wise-woman, intuitive) ways up against your book learning any day...
Of course the planets et al affect us... and as JG points out, the moon is an easy example... Ask Susan, or any woman who pays attention to her cycles, about the moon and her emotional status...

As for your question "How did those planets that weren't discovered until the modern era when large telecsopes become common, figure into the charts."...

I will pose another question...

How did the Ancients draw those same charts without benefit of telescope???

Anonymous said...

Is there not something PLUTO offers which all the other newfound tiny dwarfs do not offer which could keep it in the text books?
I agree with all the compliments Judy B. gave you Richard...
You remind me of my father whom I respect tremendously. Yet my father lacks raw imagination, which is necessary (I believe) for those hmmmm moments which lead to discovery and increased wisdom...
Imagine for a moment taking away one planet, any planet, what is the net effect here on earth?
Imagine What happens when the new criteria states A planet needs to support a space craft landing and man able to walk on it's surface to be considered a planet, do we reclassify the largest known gaseous planet in our system?
I just do not believe the handful of scientists kicking PLUTO to the curb gave it a fair analysis and properly considered the consequences of their decision...
The least they could have done is considered the human impact and kept it an honorary planet...
I would love someone of your caliber to find something PLUTO has to offer which the scientists missed and restore PLUTO to it's proper place as number nine, but that is going to take imagination and hmmmm...
Your friend John G.

Anonymous said...

"How did the Ancients draw those same charts without benefit of telescope???"

Good question...
I guess you can tell I am really motivated about this subject...

I have often credited the ancients with advanced eco friendly techniques and technologies we have yet to discover. They were advanced (much more than us) in genetics, medicine, energy sources, (the pyramids being used as a power source using LBT for communication, weather control, as well as powering their transportation vehicles, terrestrial as well as space, tools such as the "sham")
Perhaps we have not discovered any roads from this civilization because they did not use roads...
Anyway I am starting to wander so that leads me to this theory from my IMAGINATION...
A civilization such as Atlantis like Deb described which existed for 500,000 years would have been able to understand and manipulate genetics as well as forces within the universe to make their existence more comfortable, hence the pyramids and possibly even the moons (that would answer the age old question about the origination of the moon) and some planets which acted in such a way to defend earth as well as make it more habitable...
What was PLUTO’s purpose? What was it created to do? The decision to kick PLUTO to the curb was a mistake by a handful of people, which lacked imagination and all the facts. (Considering as a species WE do not know more than we know) How do we reverse their decision?

Your friend John G.

Richard Yarnell said...

We all know that the moon is not a planet and that it's gravitational field is closely tied (for now) and interactive with our own. So, rest assured, my question did not include the rather obvious physical interraction our intimate little system.

IF the constantly changing relationship of the planets could overcome the influence of the moon on our tides, such influence would be vanishingly small. Our orbit is almost negligibly influenced by the gravities of the giant planets, that influence swamped by the closer moon and more massive sun.

The charts to which I referred were the astrological charts, no longer accurate due to precessions in the celestrial sphere. And do recall that when those charts were drawn, the celestial spheres were the model and earth was at the center.

No fair, dismissing a question without at least attempting to respond. But in answer to yours, their astronomical charts included only the bodies they could see with the naked eye. (That's not quite true since the existence of both Neptune and Planette X were postulated based on calculations derived from perterbations of Uranus, in the case of the former and of Neptune, in the case of Pluto. Once their orbits were calculated, it still took several years to actually put a telescope on them.)

And I just asked Susan: hormones and about 2 million years of genetic history. She points out that the gravitational influence of pluto, if any at all (remember that the strength of a gravitational field diminishes in relation to the cube of the distance) would be overwhelmed by the nearest small motor - the one that winds your window down in your car or the compresser motor in your refrigerator.

I have to refine my sentiment about astrology - it has a fine tradition and long history but no basis in fact. However, for those that believe, I'm sure manipulation of the charts and application of all the abstruse rules, end up having a great psychological effect on believers.

Judy B. said...

Richard...When i suggested that you ask Susan... I was talking about the moon... not pluto.. the moon may be small but it has a powerful effect...

Richard, i once had beliefs similar to yours... and "facts", "logic", "scientific evidence" ruled me completely.... I could have been Presidnet of Skeptics International...

and then I "opened" (my mind, my heart, my soul) to much more knowledge than you can find in wikipedia and was "blown away"...

The imagination that JG speaks of cannot be dismissed as a flight of fancy, not can intuition not can astrology...

There are "great mysteries" that surround us, and they can not all be answered by science... BUT as science becomes more and more refined, it is also becoming more and more "in tune" with meta-physics... the knowledge that the ancients had and has been passed down thru the centuries...

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

John G, Pluto has not been kicked to the curb. It is still very much IN our solar system. It will still be called Pluto.

Think of this as an upgrade because this is an increase in the knowledge of the bodies that roam our solar system. A while back out of the corner of my attention I heard they had discovered a tenth planet. This must have been the bigger than Pluto, Xena and what has caused this reclassification to mini-planet, dwarf planet, or planette.

Apparently Pluto is smaller than our moon and may have many other neighbors.

I have to agree with Richard that I am bit of a skeptic in regards to astrology based on our birth dates. On the other hand we are made of the very same chemistry as the stars and to detach ourselves from the influence of forces in the universe far greater than ourselves elevates humans once again to a lofty sphere where we do not belong.

Anonymous said...

"On the other hand we are made of the very same chemistry as the stars and to detach ourselves from the influence of forces in the universe far greater than ourselves elevates humans once again to a lofty sphere where we do not belong."
I do not know how you do that, but very well stated. Simple and to the point, should be repeated by all often.

Richard you are in a league of your own...If I possessed a tenth of your skill over such a broad range of subjects...
As with my father I respect your abilities tremendously.

Yet you make our point very well. You are perhaps 3000 miles away from me and you influence my views and thoughts daily. A power button between you and I is all that it would take to negate your influence. Kind of like when my puter first got took out by lightning. (I must admit I missed you)
The power of the planets and the everchanging combinations exert influence over the entire universe (life forms) in many ways other than magnetic and gravitational fields, ways we have yet to realize. c'mon yu have to admit, there is much even you could still learn about, well just stuff, and there is probably one or even two things which have yet to be realized that will surprise even you and make you rethink at least some of what you have come to accept as fact.
Imagine flipping the pyramids, and on the bottom of each stone, written in some unique form which could only be read with the naked eye is the entire history of egypt and it's civilizations since the beginning, space travel included...

Something about calling PLUTO a "dwarf" planet just does not seem right. Especially when we have yet to even get a close up picture...

Judy B., Thanx again, and yes I hear you this is confirmation:-)

LBT?

deb said...

I've been thinking that I should weigh in on this conversation, but not sure how to go about it...but, here goes:

Astrology: I read once where famous astrologers were given specific birthdates including the time of birth and asked to "chart" those people. The people were Hitler, Mother Theresa and I forget who else. Everyone of the astrologers didn't even come close to getting them right.

I do believe that the learning that occurs during the first year of life is never again equaled. How a baby develops depends on environmental factors, and at least in the northern hemisphere, winter babies are snuggled much more than summer ones. Summer babies that are breastfed are going to recieve a better quality/quantity of vitamins in their diet as well as more sunshine on their skin. My guess is that if there are similarities amongst people within the signs of the zodiac that it has to do with these factors. These environmental conditions would hold true for a few years...it is much easier to toilet train a kid in the summer when clothes are at a minimum, so a kid born in July will probably train before their 2nd birthday and learn independence earlier; whereas a November kid may well be 2 1/2. The age at which developmental milestones are reached factors greatly in a person's sense of self and personality.

Pluto: ditto Christopher. Pluto is what it is...wanting it to be something else isn't going to make it so. I read an article from a Catholic Bishop discussing how Galileo was imprisoned for saying that the earth wasn't the center of the universe and the effect that trying to keep a lid on that information had on science at that time in history. We MUST be able to adapt to science and rewrite our books as new things become known to us or we, as a culture, become stagnant. The whole "evolution vs. creationism" is a very good example and stands to set science (especially biological science) back to the middle ages.

Mysteries: There are phenomenon that occur that cannot be explained scientifically...YET! I believe that these inconsistancies with what we think we know need to be explored. Who knows where it will lead?

JG, what is it with turning the pyramids upside down?

I am seriously inclined to believe that humans developed much further than we give them credit for maybe 20-10K years ago, before the last mini glacial age. The reason I believe this is that humans traversed oceans during that time. I also saw a special on PBS about the age of the Sphinx showing virtually irrefutable evidence that the Sphinx is seriously older than the pyramids. The evidence that I linked to earlier showing stone that has been turned on a lathe (that was found in the first pyramid that was built) jumps out as an inconsistancy. So I do see that we probably don't have accurate data on human history. But, as far a space travel and whether we have been visited by others is just an exercize in imagination...until some evidence proves otherwise.

LBT: The sun is bombarding us with virtually infinate amounts of energy everyday...our future depends upon us using it.

Judy B. said...

Christopher..."we are made of the very same chemistry as the stars and to detach ourselves from the influence of forces in the universe far greater than ourselves elevates humans once again to a lofty sphere where we do not belong."
all I can add is AMEN!!

Judy B. said...

Deb.. Much can be said for and against astrology... And I will never be able to "prove" whether or not it is a "science" or a "hoax"...
I do not need to....
I simply accept that there are some things that are a mystery, and I do not need to understand how they work, nor do I need someone elses proof or approval to legitimize my own experiences...

Richard Yarnell said...

LBY - I think you quoted Dan.

Perhaps we're talking past one another:

Lightning is a local pheonomenon. It is locally generated and has local influence. The power switch, I assume connecting your computer to the grid, is man made, as is the internet. The influence of Pluto or Mars over your personality, the course of your life, even events that take place in your life, as far as I'm concerned, cannot be compared, whether or not they exist, with physical pheonomena.

There's a lot I don't know. There's a lot I don't know I don't know, but I continue to try to rectify that situation. Mostly because I'm a little jealous of the people who know about the fascinating things I don't know. When I die, I'm going to be pissed as hell that I didn't find out what happened the next day.

As for the close up of Pluto, it's coming to a computer screen near you courtesy of NASA "New Horizons" in July of 2015:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/newhorizons/main/index.html

Yup, it's that far away.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Rich,
It's okay -- I know for some people astrology may be a tradition or belief system. For me, reading astrology books is just a hobby I enjoy very much, so my ego isn't strongly attached to the practice. I do see some major contradictions that astrology can't explain. For example, my youngest brother was born on the exact same day and year as Cindy Crawford, albeit at different locations and different times of day (which would place their planets in different houses). Still, being born on the same date should make their lives contain a lot of similarities according to the teachings of astrology. Although I do think Cindy Crawford has earned her own way in the world, her world is an entirely different one from that of my brother who restores classic cars for a living.

I still see too much evidence of truth in astrology, though. One small example is that everyone I've ever known who was born when the planet Venus was in Aquarius -- like myself, is attracted only to love partners who are very unconventional and free-thinking. Also, I was born with Mercury in the Seventh House of partnerships, which means I absolutely must have a communicative spouse -- I would emotionally wither if I were trapped with the cookie-cutter "strong, silent type". For that reason, I've adopted the philosophy of "If I must be lonely, I think I'd rather be alone."

I'm guessing I have somewhere between thirty and forty astrology books in my collection. I was wondering, does Powell's Books carry a good collection of hard-to-find astrology books, even if Susan may not be personally interested in astrology?

As for the part about "hormones and about 2 million years of genetic history"... What, then, accounts for the 27-and-a-half to 28 day intervals between the surges? For many years, I had thought I wasn't affected as strongly as other women. But then one day when I was inconsolable and there just weren't enough hugs to convince me I was loved enough, my friend James showed me a little calendar he had been keeping on me for several months. At first, I thought he was making light of my feelings, but then after a couple more months of my full day of sobbing at the least provocation, followed the next day by my endless Do you really love me?'s -- occurring twenty-eight days apart, I couldn't deny what was causing it. He told me that even with those days of being overemotional, that I was still one of the easier ones to deal with. And it turned out to be a blessing to him, because he thought I was too aloof the rest of the time.

Even if the planets don't have an influence on our emotional selves, I have no doubt that the luminaries certainly do -- especially the Moon.

Richard Yarnell said...

Deb:

It wasn't until I saw the Met's exhibit of Egyptian art that I realized how exquisite their craftsmanship was. Their logic was fine - just saddled still with erroneious "facts."

And then I saw pictures of cave paintings up to 20K years old and older. I realized that we don't have a monopoly on sensitivity or the power of observation.

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/lascaux/en/

The search argument: prehistoric cave art will give you many more.

Richard Yarnell said...

Astrology at Powell's: this is Oregon, for Pete's sake. You can browse their shelves yourself at www.powells.com.

I don't think anyone knows why the human cycle is roughly a (lunar) month nor why other animals have various different cycles.

However, and probably fortunately, the world's women don't seem to share the same cycle.

And even more important: whether the moon is lighted or not, it's still there, in the sky, every night. And while the lunar month is regular, there are variations in the length of human female menstrual periods.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

"However, and probably fortunately, the world's women don't seem to share the same cycle."

LOL Rich! There needs to be a much stronger word than fortunately there. That probably qualifies for "understatement of the century". I know that you were careful to go easy on us there, so as not to be politically incorrect. Wise move.

Okay, you've convinced me. But I still like to read astrology books anyway. I like the way most of the astrologers think and write. If nothing else, I find them to be very good company. Maybe I'll take the chance and use PayPal to order books on line. Do you think it's safer to use PayPal with my checking account or with my credit card?

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

There may be parallel universes in some sense because the multiple similarities between my Catholic sibling lineup and Christina's is too weird.

My youngest brother is an auto mechanic who restores new cars. Is your golf course groundskeeper brother the oldest son? What does the middle brother do? If he operates a backhoe in any way we have a trifecta.

Anonymous said...

Well...Has anyone ever turned them upside down and read the bottom of the stones?
Oh, you guys are talking about horoscopes? Way out of my league...
That energy from the sun is vitamin E? What does it turn into when it passes through or hits something else? Anyway, Richard it amazes me how the sun just burns and burns and burns. Is all the fuel it is burning there now, or does it attract it from the universe and burn it on contact, similar to a black hole? If we have never seen a blackhole, how do we know they exist?
There are some scientists (I have read) which believe certain "lineups" of the planets lead to earthquakes and atmospheric influences, also if we did not have the relative size, locations and shapes of our "9" planets life on earth would not be possible...

Imagine helping us figure out LBT, You may know about tommorrow today:-) (don't answer that, it was meant to be humorous)

Judy,
I say Christopher coins that phrase, I will print it and hang it on a wall at work for all to see. I'll let you know what kind of response I get.

Deb,
I do not know what bothers me more, changing PLUTO'S status or the fact that it was done by 300 people with limited knowledge of life outside our atmosphere.

Your friend John G.

Cheryl said...

Why not? I'll toss my opinions in too.

Pluto hasn't changed, we just have a more accurate description for it. Rose is a rose.

Astrology can be fun, but it also says that my husband and me shouldn't be married.

I have a problem with fate and destiny. I like to believe that we have free will to make our own choices. If everything is ordained before it happens, what's the point to living?

Judy B. said...

Wow... This has been fun..
Christina.. spometimes I think you are too easily convinced by someone/something that/who you think is more....... than you are...
Don't be afraid to stick to your beliefs... and having said that... also don't be afraid to move on to new beliefs...
As Einstein once said... 'all things (thoughts) are eternal, until they are rethought'...

Question to all:
Do you believe in GOD??/
Can you prove (to me)that S/HE exists??/

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Well, the similarities are quite close, Christopher. I still have to smile when I think of what you wrote about your parents having to fit the stuff into the back of the station wagon around you kids, because I can definitely identify with that. Yup, we had to squeeze between all the stuff in the back of the station wagon on car trips too. The 1960's was such a neat decade:))))) We didn't know we would have been labeled lower middle class back then -- we wouldn't even have cared anyway. All we knew is that we had enough, so we were happy. It just goes to show that having a lot of money shouldn't be necessary for happiness.

Yes, the working-class and Catholic upbringing, together with the girl-girl-boy-boy-boy lineup with the average age difference of about 19 months between each of us, has very much to do with why I felt a strong connection to you. And it doesn’t hurt that you look just like my good friend James, and in your ilima's garden picture, you looked just like my brother Jonathan, who is now 42 years old.

But there are a couple of differences -- it would be way too bizarre if there weren't. My middle brother Jonathan is the one who does golf course groundskeeping. He has never been married and has no children, although he did have two long-term live-in relationships in his life. Like you, he said he isn't willing to make the compromises necessary for marriage.

The oldest of my three younger brothers -- the one in your birth order position -- has been married for 22 years and has three boys -- ages 21, 19, and 12. He's a full-time machine mechanic for a company that manufactures capacitors. He just got that new job around the beginning of this year, after having worked at a physically grueling job as a foreman at a rubber molding press company for around ten years.

My youngest brother -- the one who restores classic cars -- has never been married and has no children, but had one very long-term relationship with his high school girlfriend. They were together for something like fifteen years before they broke up. After that, he just traveled a lot. He took a trip out west on a motorcycle to Wyoming and Colorado. Then he flew out to Australia for a few weeks' vacation. Then he moved to Hawaii, where he lived for several years off and on in Hilo. And now he's been back home for a few years to build a more secure future for himself.

My older sister has a Bachelor's of Arts in Psychology, but since the higher paying jobs in that field require a Master's or better, she's actually better off with her job at Home Depot. She was married for more than twenty years to her high school sweetheart, but is now divorced. She has two children who are twenty-one years apart in age -- my 26-year-old nephew Michael, and my niece Rachel, who will be 5 years old in September.

As for me, I've never been married and have no kids, but I’ve had two long-term relationships – one for almost 18 years with a man named Jack, who was actually too much of a people person. I mean, sometimes you’ve just got to have some time alone at home, but we were always surrounded by a wall of friends. I was also engaged for two-and-a-half years to my good friend James, who was absolutely perfect, but I screwed that up. Throughout the years, I did bank operations work, then electronics assembly because the money was good. When the electronics jobs went overseas, I worked as a library assistant at a college library 45 miles away from home for about four years. Then I got a job closer to home as a revenue audit clerk for a few years until 2002, when our hours got cut way back -- and since then, I've been a warehouse worker.

Christopher, are there any similarities between your two older sisters and my older sister and me?

deb said...

Judy, Sorry if I implied that I don't respect your's and Christin's beliefs...I was just trying to weigh in on where I am coming from. Diversity in our beliefs is was makes for a rich and intriguing world.

Richard, I want to know all of the unanswered phenomenon too. And speaking of jealous...you've forgotten more than my meager assortment of brain cells will ever be able to sort and store:(

There's a cool Hubble pic of Pluto and moons. It's a link at the bottom of the page of the link you posted.

Thanks for the cave art link...cool site. I am still thinking that human's were developed beyond caves before the last mini glacial age...those in the caves were (perhaps) the survivors of a previous civilization that were forced into the caves due to the climate. If the previous civilizations main source for building materials was wood attached with wood pegs there wouldn't be artifacts of it...but it does appear that they traveled across oceans. Wooden boats? Kon Tiki rafts?

Interesting about the parallels between you and Christin, Christopher.

JG, I saw your upside down pyramid yesterday at the Asheville energy and environment expo. It was a solar oven. They were baking bread in one, a roast in another and various veggies in another. It was aluminum sheet metal. Very effective sorce of solar power. I was wondering on the applications for turning some of that energy into alternating current. Any ideas?

Cheryl, I'm right there with you...we choose our destiny...and hopefully we can get enough of our fellow world citizens to collectively choose a sustainable future!!!

"we are made of the very same chemistry as the stars and to detach ourselves from the influence of forces in the universe far greater than ourselves elevates humans once again to a lofty sphere where we do not belong." You really are an awesome writer Christopher!

I refreshed before posting this and see that there are additional posts from Judy and Christin.

Judy, I do believe in God and seriously depend upon Jesus' teachings as an influence of what choices I should make in life. I can't prove it...and yet, I believe.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Judy,
I guess it's just because I haven't reached any definitive conclusions. It also depends on how I'm feeling at the time. Like, a few days ago, I was going through one of those overemotional episodes I described earlier, and at those times I feel like my views are me. But most of the time, my ego is not so fragile. If someone presents an argument that makes sense to me, naturally I agree with it. If in the future I see evidence to the contrary, then I change my view accordingly.

Judy B. said...

Deb... "Judy, Sorry if I implied that I don't respect your's and Christin's beliefs..."

I wasn't pointing fingers at you... nor do I think you implied anything. I agree with you probably 95% of the time... diversity is great... but so is preaching to the crowd...

My point... if there is one.. about believing in God, is that we take it on faith... not scientific proof, not logic ...and that there are other things that we take on faith too..

For instance... I am NOT a big beliver in Astrology... but those who do believe have the right to their beliefs, and do not need to be pounded with rational that "prooves" them wrong...

We are:
what we believe,
what we think,
what we were socialized into,
how we were educated
and the list goes on... including
Karma... if you believe that..
past life actions that "need" to be addressed...

As our beliefs change, so does our life... and I AM living proof of that...

Richard Yarnell said...

Wow!

I used to be accused of being psychic. I was father confessor to an alarming number of my classmates - mostly gals. I attributed it to simply listening and watching very carefully.

If the site is reputable (large and well known) I use my credit card. For transactions with individuals or places I don't know, I use PayPal. For incoming, I bill using PayPal.

Richard Yarnell said...

I know you addressed this to Deb, but those 300 folks who adopted a new definition for "planet" was an international group of the best and most involved working astronomers on the planet. They merely defined the term they use in their everyday work - a term which had gone without an adequate definition since it was coined several thousand years ago.

Bill Nye pointed out something that I hadn't processed: IF Pluto, or Charon, or Xena were not in distant orbits but rather were in deeply eliptical orbits like comets, they would sprout tails and, over the millennia would finally break up and disapper, having outgassed all that ice.

The Sun accreted material within its gravitational neighborhood. I suspect, as it grew, the gravitational locus became a point. The planets and other bodies in the solar system, likewise acreted from the disc of debris that revolved around the sun. It's my understanding that, barring a collision with another star, the fuel now contained in the Sun is pretty much it. The sun has a finite life and a predictible life story. At some point in the future, the gravitational well of the sun will diminish and its diameter will increase absorbing, if memory serves, Mercury, Venus, Earth and maybe Mars. Then the outward pressure of its "combustion" will diminish, allowing its remaining mass to collapse, at which time it will become a dim, brown, dwarf. Of course you know that "combustion" is not the mechanism, but rather fusion of hydrogen.

Should we be ascribing Vitamin D to exposure to the sun rather than Vitamin E?

And as for "Black Holes" we can observe the matter around them and infer their existence. They're "black" because they're so massive that even light doesn't escape from within the "event horizon." However, just this side of the event horizon, where matter is being torn apart during its approach, there are visible fireworks and emissions of very energetic particles.

I have no idea whether the "lineup" of the inner planets would cause enough distortion in the earth's volume to trigger earthquakes. I wouldn't be surprised. The moon causes our tides and is probably responsible for a minor change in the shape of our rocky sphere. (I don't know this, but there should be a very small amount of shape change on the moon due to variations in the intensity of our gravitational signature. But since the moon only revolves once per month (or orbit) it always presents the same aspect to us. Io is kept molten and volcanically active because of its interaction (and shape shifting) in response to Jupiter's gravitational field.

Anonymous said...

"Should we be ascribing Vitamin D to exposure to the sun rather than Vitamin E?"

That was a good one! never seen it coming:-! reminded me of iran...
Your awesome!

Anonymous said...

I understand the 300 astronomers motives, just believe the definition is flawed. It would be interesting to know of the 300 votes how many were for and against.

I believe in god.
In our three dimensional lives we live in a place and time where everything has a beginning and an end. Educated guess tells me "something" always has been and always will be. Experience tells me That "something" is fully aware.


I wrote an essay as a kid (before
computers) which basically gave credit for all we were and knew to a 13 year old kids computerized ant farm. He was from another solar system, We were his science project. It ended by the kid getting an F and the project being scrapped, we were doomed... I got an A
Understanding eternity in some form leads me to reason (imagine)
pre dinosaur advanced civilizations (more advanced than ours) for the sake of conversation we will call it ATLANTIS.
We have no proof of her existence yet it is in the conscious of all aware beings.
Where did she go? Why can we not find her? The average person thinks about civilization in the terms of BC and AD or post dinosaur. Which is only several thousand or million years. Yet our planet and solar system are billions of years old. Tectonic shifts if I understand correctly push the earths crust under one another. One half becomes mountains, the other half becomes lava. It is basically melted away and recreated into something else.
Deb sent me a link where the earth was one giant island, millions of years ago before the continental shift. That original island has since melted away and all trace of life forms that went with it. The continents as we know them today are entirely something else.
Dinosaurs may have even been a genetically engineered food source for it's populous. The civilization may not have perished, just seeded throughout the universe and still exists today. A global event made the earth uninhabitable, they left first. The dinosaurs were left to fend for themselves and eventually died off since their creators were not here to manage their eco system. This civilization was intelligent enough to have left traces of it's existence for future adapted and aware species to
discover when it's cultures and technologies permitted. As witnessed with the pyramids, this discovery has not always been properly transferred from one civilization to the next and every civilization on record believes it is more advanced than the last even when the mysteries tell them different. Hence much is lost as time passes.
Atlantis, the Pyramids, Black holes, Dark energy each is a snapshot of that which has always been, we just have to know where to look. Flip the pyramids and read the bottom of the stones with the naked eye, I bet you will find
more than an oven...:-)
Imagine a piece of the earths crust
from Atlantis got stuck, it did not mountain or melt. It is rich with pre dinosaur ATLANTIS. Imagine the technology and raised awareness to it's finders, we'll call it AREA 51 for the sake of conversation...

If something has always been and always will be, Imagination is as powerful as faith...


Tangled up in strings again,
Your friend John G.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

I am glad so many of you liked the star dust sentence. I have to be careful so it doesn't go to my head, but it is nice to be encouraged to continue trying to write.

Parallel Catholic Universes

My oldest sister Cathy was knocked up by her highschool boyfriend and gave the boy up for adoption. She was later married to a different man and then divorced after 20 years and has two other sons from the marriage who are 10 years apart in age, now 20 and 10. Three boys each about 10 years apart. She owns her own business doing marketing/promotion services.

My next sister Robin has a masters in nursing and after 20+ years in the ER has a cush job for a research cardiologist or something like that doing the data input in the office. She was forced to marry her longtime live in boyfriend when she became pregnant with their only child my niece Rachel.

I told my mother who had always been cold to Glenn her now husband because it wasn't right living in sin that she needed to get over it. My sister may have been doing it backwards but she was getting the job done and making a grandchild so be happy.

Then there is me, the single, childless, contrarian hermit gardener in Hawaii.

Below me is Mark, single, childless never married or in a relationship that anyone knows of until my recent visit where a friend of mine reported sightings of him at The House of Blues in Orlando with a women. There has been some mention of regularity with this women but he has failed to produce her for inspection.

Mark cleans up toxic waste at superfunds and currently does that at Cape Canaveral. He is the backhoe guy.

The youngest Patrick is the auto mechanic married with two kids a boy and a girl.

Judy B. said...

John...I love you!!!!

christin m p in massachusetts said...

"I wrote an essay as a kid (before
computers) which basically gave credit for all we were and knew to a 13 year old kids computerized ant farm. He was from another solar system, We were his science project. It ended by the kid getting an F and the project being scrapped, we were doomed...
"

John, that is a riot... I've been saying for years now that I suspect we were some space alien kid's failed science project.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

I just heard on the rebroadcast of Fox News that Pluto's neighbor -- Neptune -- might be the next to go...

Richard Yarnell said...

I believe the final vote was unanimous and that the assembled scientists applauded. However, the definition that was first presented on that final conference day, was hooted down and amended over and over until they got what was approved. I've heard rumors that, despite it's size, some astronomers may protest by claiming that Neptune doesn't qualify since it hasn't dominated Pluto's orbit. I think the move will fail since the argument can be made that Pluto wasn't part of the original debris disk.

There are sites that animate continental drift from "Pangea" to the present (and some, into a hypothetical future.)

Pangea did not melt away, it's components moved. For example, slide Africa toward South America and you find a beautiful fit.

Here's one site to explore:

http://www.scotese.com/

You may not accept it, but I'm more imagination than I am fact checker. I too had a long narrative in which earth was a minute part of a much larger whole. In fact, we were somewhere in the middle, each layer being a a factor of 10 or a hundred larger or smaller.

But fantasy, imagination, and belief (faith) to me don't substitute for direct observation and rigorous scientific method. Nor does scientific method detract from imagination. In fact, imagination is a requirement for good research.

While I doubt that "God" exists, I have no proof. But then you don't have any that "God" does exist. I've just never found a reason to subscribe to the faith even though, at times, I've tried and did study comparative religion, once upon a time. And I'd feel a lot more kindly toward religion (of any stripe) if the faithful acted more in keeping with their talk. A lot of heartbreak and blood has flowed from the imposition and defense of faith.

Anonymous said...

"A lot of heartbreak and blood has flowed from the imposition and defense of faith."

Agreed...yet the good hearted and faithful have flourished million fold as well as a result.
The problem with science to me is it keeps proving itself wrong. Just when they think they have it figured out, "god" will throw in a wrench. I do not believe an educated person with a skill in wording the facts can accuratly analyze an earth 1 billion years ago or a universe 1 billon light years away. It simply is not possible. History has proven There are too many variables.
I have tried to fit the continents back together based on continental shift and it looks pretty darn close yet you must admit it is far from perfect. For the sake of making the experts job easier I will cede PLUTO for now and let them drift, yet I have a gut feeling it is far from over and set in stone. PLUTO just was not all about the science, it was something else...anyway buy anything which recognizes her as a planet, it's value has just increased:-)
As far as proving "god" does exist, "god" will not allow that, when s/he does s/he becomes fact/science and everyone loses their faith and we will start proving he/r wrong...:-)

Your friend John G.

Judy B. said...

John G.... and maybe Deb...
If you are into reading novels, i have read a couple lately that have some interesting themes and twists... One is "Decipher", that gets all tangled up in strings about "Atlantis", the "end days", pyramids, climate warming, and decoding ancient language.
The other one "01-01-00" is also about the end of days, astrology, computers, hidden pyramids in Central Amereica, and "star seeds".. this one from The Mayan perspective.
Thinking about "star seeds", John, there is a book by that same name that I read 10-15 years ago... You might like it...

Richard Yarnell said...

For the sake of the list, I'll leave the debate over whether it is moral for a strong group of the faithful to use violence to impose their faith on others in order to strengthen themselves to another time and place.

Science is a process. And it is defect in our education system that we don't teach accurately the methods and the role of science. It is permissible, in fact, it's mandatory to challenge a proven fact whenever a new variable appears or an observation is made that may or may not fit what we currently accept as "proven."

A billion years ago, I believe, is still accessible. But one of the problems of working on earth's geology is the tendency for it to subduct out of sight.

Pangea won't give you a perfect fit. There's a lot of weathering that's gone on during the very long time it's taken for the continents to drift into the present positions. But if you don't believe it's happening, then three things you should know: 1) India is crashing into Asia and has been for long enough to produce the Himalayas and a lot of devastating earthquakes in the middle east; 2) I happen to live very close to two "ring of fire" volcanoes that are fed by the subduction of the Pacific plate under the North American plate. (While looking for the name of a small plate that lies between the Pacific and NA ones - Gorda - to see whether it was considered in the subduction zone, I came across a note that explains some of the history of a completely subducted plate can be inferred by looking at the complimentary patterns left on the the surviving plate. Whether this is only true of plates under the sea, I didn't pursue.

Anonymous said...

I guess I had some of that coming.
Science is a process yes. It is too often not the right process. When the institution of science does not entertain theory which has been discounted in other scientific processes. Discovery slows to a snails pace and in many instances ceases altogether.
Sometimes we just need to dismiss the facts as readily as we dismiss the imagination.
The defect in our education system is called scientific complacency. It comes about as a result of science teachers teaching when they should be listening and leaders leading when they should be following the leaders.
I am fascinated by the ring of fire and it's impact on our world.
If I read your posting correctly we agree the topography of pangea and modern day continents are at opposite ends over the past billion years, a civilization "could" have been lost without any physical forensic evidence, even though what we know tells us different.
I went through a flood in 1993. It was intimidating witnessing the power this thing had in changing the landscape right before our eyes. 13 years later the only evidence, you would have to know to look for and then it is faint. Imagine 1 billion years.
You are a genius for a teacher.

Your friend John G.

Cheryl said...

One of the problems with the education system today is teaching to the test. Standardized tests have become too important. Sometimes we get too rapt up in memorizing lists of facts and forget to learn what they mean.

About imagination. That reminds me of a line from "Voyage of the Basset", "seeing is believing".

Judy B. said...

"seeing is believing"... how appropriate...
As the old saying goes "I'll believe it when I see it".... but that is not really the way it works...
This is how it really works.. and this may be a stretch for some...
You can only see what you believe, so if your belief system tells you something is impossible, you may never see what others take for everyday occurances.. and then when you have a big AAHAAA, your belief about something changes and you see it differently.
Science has become so indoctrinated in what has gone before that it is almost like teaching the ABC's... A is the beginning so B must come next...
It is the dreamers, with imagination that come up with the big discoveries... or it is by "accident"... although I do not believe in accidents either...
So the saying really should go..."I will se it when I believe it"

Richard Yarnell said...

Have to disagree:

"Science" isn't an institution, it's a method that demands continual application of challenges to hypothesis. Hypothesis must be tested and results must be reproducible by anyone.

Your own description of god's not subjecting itself to "proof" is correct. Faith is outside of scientific method and need not be proven. There's a neat little circle there, one which doesn't interest me.

I don't think we're on the same page yet with respect to Pangeia. If the Earth is approximately 4-5 Billion years old, then by nature of its origin (accretion of material in our immediate orbit, likely collision with a mars sized object, impacts with large objects like the Yucatan astroid) and its continuing tectonic migration, the oldest solid material has been recycled. That's one of the reasons it was important to go to the moon. However, I don't think a billion years is enough to eliminate all traces of surface activity that occurred even a billion years ago.

Life, as we know it, is probably not the original article; conditions we enjoy now certainly aren't the ones that predominated at various times early in the Earth's cooling history. There were times when oxygen was at least not abundant but when methane and other hydrocarbons were. It's likely that life emerged more than once under vastly different conditions.

But the idea that a developed civilization with hard goods has totally disappeared, IMO, is remote in the extreme. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of science fiction and would be delighted to learn we're the descendents of colonists, but you'll forgive my profound skepticism.

I have some serious work to do and cannot address what's wrong with our educational system, but it's not "scientific complacency." If I understand what you mean, complacency comes not from the scientific community but from the folks who neither understand what science is or who are too lazy or too afraid to put their own construction of the world/universe to the rigors of proof.

Judy B. said...

Richard, I am not sure that anyone really disagrees with you about the scientific approach, and how meticulous and stringent the parameters need to be when approaching a scientific breakthrough... Nor do I think there is much disagreement about our educaltiuonal system, and the need for more emphasis on and better instructional methods for making science a real choice by our younger generations...

It has been stated many times on this blog how much we all admire your intellectual abilities..

I will have to agree with JOhn tho, about your imagination... Your skepticism really limity your ability to even consider something that hasn't, as yet, been proven...

It is the dreamers and the tohse with imagination that think up much of what the scientists prove 100 years later....

If you took the skeptics cap off, and let your imagination run wild for an hour, I bet you could come up with the worlds next best thing...

Richard Yarnell said...

My role here is as the skeptic.

As for imagination and dreaming:

I am and have been all my life, an artist and dreamer. I made my living as an artist. However, where we part company is when you ask me to ignore what is observable and to substitute blind faith.

I have been known for thinking outside the box. I did not consider myself constrained by the rules of behavior or tradition when it came to solving my Union's problems. If the rules didn't work, I was always convinced there was an acceptable way to solve the problem.

Want an example of the destructive capacity of such blind faith - observe the president of the US. Other men of faith, I suspect a much more valid and pervasive faith, Carter and Clinton, were, and are, able to accept facts and to act on them in an intelligent manner.

So don't feel compelled to save me from myself. Let me be content with my belief that nearly infinite amounts of time and a lot of chance can perform the miracles that you ascribe to a god.

Richard Yarnell said...

This article, in the form of a letter to a clergyman, is by Edward O. Wilson, an emeritus professor of biology at Harvard. It is both compelling and a masterstroke of dimplomacy. You may have to register at the site to access the full letter.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060904&s=wilson090406

BTW, considering my previous post in this thread, like Doctor Wilson, I once spent considerable time in church. I don't think I was ever baptized, but I did alter duty at the Episcopal church in town and played piano for the Methodist one. A combination of skepticism and tennis lured me out of both. I have a huch that the pagentry of the Episcopal church planted the seed that led to my theatrical career.

Anonymous said...

When I was a Young man, I was friends with a retired air force officer (Col. Kelly) which went on to become an important leader within the science community. As you, he was a wonderful teacher and fostered imagination of the young. He used to say we were the keys of tommorrow and the only thing impossible was perpetual motion and he had his doubts about that. He passed away years ago. Yet I can still remember painting his house just so I could converse with him and learn. He kept learning fun. Painting the house gave birth to many conversations about the universe and everything in it. It was some years before I realized I had painted his house for free. Anyway you remind me of him. Thank You
Albert Einstein has been known to believe if he had gone through a science course at a university he would not have completed his theory of relativity and many of his other findings. He, by nature, questioned everything. skepticism is good...

The latest TIME magizine has an interesting article about the birth of the universe based on scientific findings, This particular paragraph caught my eye,
"cosmologists say you should imagine the universe as a balloon with dots painted on it's surface. As the balloon inflates, the dots will get farther apart-not because they're sliding around but because the balloon is stretching. That being the case, A light beam traveling through expanding space is stretched as well, it's wave length getting longer as it goes. Long - wavelength light is red; stretch it out longer and it becomes infrared light and then microwaves and, finally, long wavelength radio waves. The flash that came from the big bang started out as visible light; by now, 13.7 billion years later, is still streaming through space, but it has been stretched so much that astronomers have to use microwave antennas to detect it."

LBT? If the universe works that way, and we are a smaller part of the whole, ESP becomes not only possible but likely.


"we are made of the very same chemistry as the stars and to detach ourselves from the influence of forces in the universe far greater than ourselves elevates humans once again to a lofty sphere where we do not belong."

"It is the dreamers and the those with imagination that think up much of what the scientists prove 100 years later...."

We were both right...



Your friend John G.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

I just watched the Concert for Bangladesh on PBS -- thanks to everyone who donates to the station. George Harrison was my favorite Beatle. I still can't believe he's gone.

Rich,
You made your living in theater? I already knew you were involved in theater, but before now, I thought it was just a hobby for you.

What you said about the pagentry of your church... Many years ago, I attended a church service with Episcopalian friends, and I felt pretty comfortable there because the pagentry was a lot like what I was used to seeing at Catholic masses.

I haven't read much about the different religions, but I got the sense that Episcopalian church services were patterned after Catholic masses, or vice-versa.

Judy B. said...

My apologise richard... Didn'y mean to soound pompus... and far be it fo me to want to "save you"... You are great just the way you are... what a wonderful universe it is to celebrate our differences...

Richard Yarnell said...

I wouldn't tell that to an Episcopalean!

When Henry got tired of genuflecting in the Pope's direction (the Pope wouldn't give him the divorce he asked for) he founded the Church of England. In the beginning, the only difference was the power of the Pope and of Mary.

The Episcopal church, at least in the US, has high and low versions and a new reform version. But many of the old Catholic rituals still pertain - communion being one.

Theatre: Yup, as an actor (mostly stage, but some film, some TV, and lots of voice-over work). Committee work for the Union led to a job there when my wife told me I'd better not go on the road again (unfortunately, I thought it would be a poor idea to come home to an empty house, otherwise, I might still be at it). Later, after falling off that icy roof on Long Island while trying to figure out why one of my company's solar installations wasn't working, I managed the NJ Shakespeare Festival and the became Producing Director of Storefront Theatre, here in Portland.

deb said...

Very deep conversation! Richard, "A scientist's plea for Christian environmentalism" is one of the best articles that I have ever read. I thank you profoundly for sharing it.

BTW, you are perhaps the most creative and definately the most intelligent person (in so many fields) that I have had the pleasure of personally knowing (in that blog type of relationship, that is;).

I was raised a Catholic, I changed to Episcopal because of the Catholic stance on birth control. I have found Episcopalians, in general, to be open-minded.

I seriously admire Carter, and I will share the difference between someone like him and someone like Jerry Falwell: Carter knows that proven science is a reality and that religion must fit within that reality because God made the reality. God created the world using an amazingly brilliant plan and science is the discovery of that plan. Fundamentalists believe that every written word in the Bible is accurate and that anyone proving otherwise must have been sent by the devil to undermine their faith. To which I might ask: Which version of the Bible? What of the verses that contradict other verses?

Galileo was imprisoned and then faced a lifetime of house arrest for saying that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. This I fear. My kids weren't taught of the long ago existance of pangaea, or the approximate age of the earth, or evolution in school in south Alabama. So I taught them myself, but isn't that scary?

Good story JG, what a remarkable teacher Col. Kelley must have been for you not to have even noticed that you painted the house for free. I bet you'd do it again anyway, and since I trust that he was as wise as you have stated, I would gladly join in.

Judy, I believe that there is much that we don't know, but I also believe that once we "know" it we will be able to scientifically prove it's existance. Perhaps originally with theories...but like that guy who mathematically proved that a donut can't become a sphere, somebody will come up with a way to verify it.

I remember when accupuncture was felt to only work because the patient believed that it worked. There has since been nervous system research proving it a valid treatment that is effective because of the way the nervous system develops in us as embryos and insurance companies will usually pay for that form of pain relief.

An essential element for anything to be real is the ability to reproduce it under the same circumstances.

I greatly admire that you have walked on fire and am not sure what type of mind control or connection to spiritual energy that entails, but if it is a connection to energy it can be measured...we just probably don't have the right equipment yet.

I feel that both you and JG are asking the rest of us to see something that you see, but I don't have enough information to process it yet. Also, part of reasoning is to critique any hypothesis. If it is religion I totally respect that, but if it is a reality based phenomenon then it has to hold up to that scientific method.

Judy, you stated earlier that a person's religious beliefs don't need "pounded" upon, because a person is entitled to their beliefs. Well, yes and no, right now in our country we are giving enormous amounts of money to faith based charities who are using a portion of that money to subsidize home schooling. The home school lessons include teaching that the world is 4K years old along with other inaccurate science. On the other hand, grants for scientific studies, such as archeology have been seriously cut. So, at what point do we, as a society, say that someone can believe what they want but if it doesn't hold up to reality then, sorry, but people who prove the data wrong are just as entitled to criticize that belief?

And even in friendship, am I not permitted to state why I don't believe in something?

Judy B. said...

No time, no way, no how ...would I ever intentionally push my beliefs on someone else... sometimes when I reread my threads, I realize that I do not give enough information, or proofread at all and find mispellings that make it hard for even me to know what I said...

Absolutely, you are entitled to your beliefs, disbeliefs... so are we all, including the fundamentalists... At least that is the way I see it...

Who is to say what/who is right or wrong. Judge not....

I firmly believe that you (Deb) and Richard have so much to offer, that maybe I try to stretch you a little... but not to change you... unless you want to change... in turn, I believe that our conversations stretch me... that is what I hope for..
to always see with new eyes, the wonder of this world... and to love even the fundamentalists, because they too, are acting firmly within their belief system...

dan said...

Richard, I just read the Wilson article. It was well worth reading and registering at the New Republic to gain access to it.

Judy, I also need stretching and you've been doing that. Your probably right that dreamers, unrestrained by scientific methods, sometimes discover a truth that scientists later confirm. But I suspect that it's also likely that dreamer's are often wrong and we rely on scientists to sort that out.

I've always found the conversations on this blog fasinating and the diverse views and opinions here are very much an asset.

I'd love to toast everyone here at Breadcrusts with a glass of Richard's home made wine. Cheers to all!

Anonymous said...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376229,00.html

Here is the link I qouted from TIME magazine.

Cheers...

Richard Yarnell said...

Unfortunately, only the teaser is available to non-subscribers.

I'm writing this, then, not having read the article. It's possible that the popular article has over-simplified what is now thought to have happened during the BB and that has led to a misunderstanding. It's also very possible that my own understanding is faulty.

The balloon analogy is a good one. Any hollow sphere will serve, the key point being that the mass of the singularity (from which the bang originated) is all contained in the surface of the expanding sphere.

I don't think it's correct to say that the BB was expressed as visible light. More likely, it was expressed as a wide spectrum that included visible light.

For the first 300K-500K, the mass was plasma. My understanding is that the ball of plasma, in the beginning, expanded faster than the speed of light. If we ever penetrate that far, we will see the event horizon but won't be able to penetrate beyone that 300K years that may or may not be 300K light years.

If you take a balloon and put some dots on it before you blow it up, you can demonstrate that all the dots travel away from each other and that as the size of the ballon increases, that rate of travel increases (assuming that the diameter is increasing at a steady rate).

Here's where my understanding is different than yours, JG:

We're all familiar with the doppler effect - a train goes by or a fire engine and the pitch of the whistle or siren seems to drop. The sound that you heard as the train approached was higher than it is at the source because the sound waves are compressed by the speed of the train. As soon as it goes by, the reverse happens. But once the train has passed you, the pitch doesn't change (assuming that you're close to the track) unless the speed of the train changes. The volume will diminish because the energy is dispersed over a larger and larger sphere, but not the pitch.

The analogy with light generated by stars and galaxies is a good one. Only we don't have an opporunity to exerpience an object coming our way, observe the expanding balloon). The term "red shift" describes for light what happened with the sound. If an object were heading toward us, we would see a "blue shift" toward higher frequencies. Since the shift, so far, has been universally toward the red, it appears to prove that the universe is expanding. Depending on how much mass there is, either the universe will continue to expand, or there will come a time when gravity calls all the mass back to the center.

The amount of red shift depends, not on distance, but on the speed at which two objects are travelling away from each other. As the distance increases, assuming the model of a sphere is correct, then that speed is increasing. Those objects will also become dimmer with distance. However, relative to the center, the origin of the BB, either the speed will be constant or slowing under the thrall of gravity. So there should not be any red shift relative to the center of the sphere.

The evloution from plasma to what is now described as "dark matter" is a loss of energy or temperature over time, not "stretching." When matter cools sufficiently, it no longer emits energy of any kind (absolute 0). Think of a piece of iron that's heated until it glows. As it cools off, glow fades. Once the visible glow fades, the iron is still hot and is emitting in the infrared - it's still hot to the touch.

Mind bending, isn't it. I've been told by astrophysisists from my class, that we won't be able to see beyond that ball of plasma that suddenly expanded 13-15 Billion years ago because the plasma itself will obscure anthing on the other side. Furthermore, if the expansion was indeed faster than the speed of light (not a violation of Einstein, BTW) light won't be able to reach this side of the sphere.

That's where the existence of matter than we can't see becomes important.
If there's enough of it, expansion will gradually slow. If there isn't, the mass of the universe, all in the surface of the sphere, will become so dispersed that gravitational attraction will continue to diminish.

The observations and theory line up pretty well now. They're still mapping the matter as they find ways to detect the matter we can't see. But the real key to it all is to realize that the universe is hollow and, for now, we're going our own way toward solitude.

Richard Yarnell said...

Unfortunately, only the teaser is available to non-subscribers.

I'm writing this, then, not having read the article. It's possible that the popular article has over-simplified what is now thought to have happened during the BB and that has led to a misunderstanding. It's also very possible that my own understanding is faulty.

The balloon analogy is a good one. Any hollow sphere will serve, the key point being that the mass of the singularity (from which the bang originated) is all contained in the surface of the expanding sphere.

I don't think it's correct to say that the BB was expressed as visible light. More likely, it was expressed as a wide spectrum that included visible light.

For the first 300K-500K, the mass was plasma. My understanding is that the ball of plasma, in the beginning, expanded faster than the speed of light. If we ever penetrate that far, we will see the event horizon but won't be able to penetrate beyone that 300K years that may or may not be 300K light years.

If you take a balloon and put some dots on it before you blow it up, you can demonstrate that all the dots travel away from each other and that as the size of the ballon increases, that rate of travel increases (assuming that the diameter is increasing at a steady rate).

Here's where my understanding is different than yours, JG:

We're all familiar with the doppler effect - a train goes by or a fire engine and the pitch of the whistle or siren seems to drop. The sound that you heard as the train approached was higher than it is at the source because the sound waves are compressed by the speed of the train. As soon as it goes by, the reverse happens. But once the train has passed you, the pitch doesn't change (assuming that you're close to the track) unless the speed of the train changes. The volume will diminish because the energy is dispersed over a larger and larger sphere, but not the pitch.

The analogy with light generated by stars and galaxies is a good one. Only we don't have an opporunity to exerpience an object coming our way, observe the expanding balloon). The term "red shift" describes for light what happened with the sound. If an object were heading toward us, we would see a "blue shift" toward higher frequencies. Since the shift, so far, has been universally toward the red, it appears to prove that the universe is expanding. Depending on how much mass there is, either the universe will continue to expand, or there will come a time when gravity calls all the mass back to the center.

The amount of red shift depends, not on distance, but on the speed at which two objects are travelling away from each other. As the distance increases, assuming the model of a sphere is correct, then that speed is increasing. Those objects will also become dimmer with distance. However, relative to the center, the origin of the BB, either the speed will be constant or slowing under the thrall of gravity. So there should not be any red shift relative to the center of the sphere.

The evloution from plasma to what is now described as "dark matter" is a loss of energy or temperature over time, not "stretching." When matter cools sufficiently, it no longer emits energy of any kind (absolute 0). Think of a piece of iron that's heated until it glows. As it cools off, glow fades. Once the visible glow fades, the iron is still hot and is emitting in the infrared - it's still hot to the touch.

Mind bending, isn't it. I've been told by astrophysisists from my class, that we won't be able to see beyond that ball of plasma that suddenly expanded 13-15 Billion years ago because the plasma itself will obscure anthing on the other side. Furthermore, if the expansion was indeed faster than the speed of light (not a violation of Einstein, BTW) light won't be able to reach this side of the sphere.

That's where the existence of matter than we can't see becomes important.
If there's enough of it, expansion will gradually slow. If there isn't, the mass of the universe, all in the surface of the sphere, will become so dispersed that gravitational attraction will continue to diminish.

The observations and theory line up pretty well now. They're still mapping the matter as they find ways to detect the matter we can't see. But the real key to it all is to realize that the universe is hollow and, for now, we're going our own way toward solitude.

Anonymous said...

This is a long article, we may need to start a new thread, but it contains much of what we have been talking about I feel compelled to share it with all of you. Overall I "think" it states there is valuable information to be harvested from light beams as to the history and formation of the universe we all share, we just had to know where to look...
I believe your observations are very close to what is contained in this article Richard, I hope there are one or two items which are new based on the fact much of it appears to be emerging technology.
Enjoy the article.

Your friend John G.

"Richard Ellis paces impatiently back and forth across a small room lined with computer terminals, trying to contain his mounting frustration. The British-born astronomer, now at Caltech, has been granted a single precious night to use one of the twin Keck telescopes, among the most powerful in the world. Last night he and his observing partner, a graduate student named Dan Stark, flew 3,000 miles, from Southern California to Hawaii, where the Kecks are located. And during most of the afternoon and early evening today, they've made their final plans for the "run," as astronomers call a night of peering into the heavens.

But things are not going right. It isn't the weather, which is what usually trips up stargazers. Here at Keck headquarters in the sleepy town of Waimea, nestled in the midst of cattle-ranching country on Hawaii's Big Island, thick clouds are scudding past, occasionally dipping low enough to send a driving mist across the grassy hills. But the telescopes are some 25 miles away and more than two miles up, in the thin, frigid air at the summit of the extinct volcano Mauna Kea. At an altitude of nearly 14,000 ft., the observatory sits well above the cloud deck. Live video-camera images piped down to the Waimea control room show white domes silhouetted against a fading but crystal-clear sky.

The problem is that Keck 2, the scope Ellis and Stark have been assigned for the night, stubbornly refuses to focus. Time and again, the professional telescope operator who sits in a control room up on the summit and actually runs the mammoth instrument has issued the command that tells it to focus. Time and again, the focusing routine has responded to his commands by crashing. For half an hour, engineers have been trying to figure out what is going on--while the first of the precious celestial objects on Ellis and Stark's observing schedule sinks inexorably toward the horizon. "This is pretty profound," says Ellis, bitterly. "If you can't focus the telescope, you're stuffed."

No astronomer likes to be cheated out of an observing night, whether the quarry is a mundane moon of Jupiter or an exotic quasar halfway across the cosmos. But Ellis has special cause for frustration: he's looking for something far more elusive than any quasar. Tonight he intended to bag something most astronomers consider next to impossible: the most distant galaxy ever seen--and not the farthest by just a little bit. The current record for distance, held by another giant Mauna Kea observatory, Japan's Subaru telescope, is for a galaxy whose light started its journey to Earth a billion years or so after the Big Bang. But Ellis and Stark suspect they have found not one but six galaxies from an astonishing half a billion years earlier still. Tonight's run could confirm it.
A discovery like that would give Ellis bragging rights at astronomy conferences for years to come, and it would let Stark finish his dissertation with a dramatic flourish. But far more important, it would give astrophysicists their first real glimpse into a crucial and mysterious era in the evolution of the cosmos. Known as the Dark Ages of the universe, it's the 200 million-year period (more or less) after the last flash of light from the Big Bang faded and the first blush of sun-like stars began to appear. What happened during the Dark Ages set the stage for the cosmos we see today, with its billions of magnificent galaxies and everything that they contain--the shimmering gas clouds, the fiery stars, the tiny planets, the mammoth black holes.

When the Dark Ages began, the cosmos was a formless sea of particles; by the time it ended, just a couple hundred million years later, the universe was alight with young stars gathered into nascent galaxies. It was during the Dark Ages that the chemical elements we know so well--carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and most of the rest--were first forged out of primordial hydrogen and helium. And it was during this time that the great structures of the modern universe--superclusters of thousands of galaxies stretching across millions of light-years--began to assemble.

UNRAVELING A MYSTERY

So far, however, even the mightiest telescopes haven't been able to penetrate into that murky era. "We have a photo album of the universe," says Avi Loeb, a theoretical astrophysicist at Harvard University, "but it's missing pages--as though you had pictures of a child as an infant and then as a teenager, with nothing in between."

The full answer may have to wait for a new generation of telescopes expected to come on line within the next decade. In astronomy, size matters, especially for faraway objects. The bigger a telescope, the more of a distant galaxy's meager light it can gather--just as a swimming pool catches more rain than a bucket. So astronomers are looking forward to a ground-based monster with nearly 10 times the light-gathering area of the Keck, a space telescope more than 10 times as big as the Hubble and several radio telescopes with unprecedented sensitivity. Meanwhile, using the basic laws of physics, sophisticated computer simulations and tantalizing hints from existing telescopes, astronomers have put together a plausible scenario of what must have happened during the Dark Ages.

The first of those hints comes from the universe-wide flash of light that followed nearly half a million years after the Big Bang. Before that flash occurred, according to the widely accepted "standard model" of cosmology, our entire cosmos had swelled from a space smaller than an atom to something 100 billion miles across. It was then a seething maelstrom of matter so hot that subatomic particles trying to form into atoms would have been blasted apart instantly and so dense that light couldn't have traveled more than a short distance before being absorbed. If you could somehow live long enough to look around in such conditions, you would see nothing but brilliant light in all directions.
But as the universe expanded, it finally cooled down enough to allow atoms to form and light to shine out across open space. The accidental discovery of that light back in the 1960s convinced astronomers that the Big Bang was a real event, not just a theoretical construct.

That first detection of the remnants of the Big Bang was crude, but a series of increasingly sophisticated instruments, culminating in the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) satellite in 2003, have laid bare the structure of the 400,000-year-old cosmos--only a few hundred-thousandths of its present age--in surprising detail. This was the baby picture Loeb referred to. At that point, the universe was still a very simple place. "You can summarize the initial conditions," says Loeb, "on a single sheet of paper." Some regions were a tiny bit denser than average and some a little more sparse. Most of the stuff in it--then and still today--was the mysterious dark matter that nobody has yet identified, largely because it doesn't produce light of any sort. The rest was mostly hydrogen, with a bit of helium mixed in. So far, the universe hadn't done much of anything.

THE FIRST STARS

At the start of the dark ages, there were no galaxies, no stars, no planets. Even if there had been, we wouldn't be able to spot them. That's because hydrogen-gas clouds are nearly opaque to visible light; no ordinary telescope will ever be able to see what happened afterward. Yet somehow the matter that started as a sea of individual atoms managed to transform itself into something more. So back in the early 1990s, Loeb began lobbying theorists to make a major push to deduce through computer simulations how the first stars formed. The plan was to re-create the young universe digitally, plug in equations for the relevant physics and see what must have happened.

At first, the simulations agree, gravity was the only force at work. Regions of higher density drew matter to them, becoming denser still--a pattern preserved to this day in the distribution of galaxies, with huge clusters where there were high-density regions back then and great voids in between. Eventually, clouds of hydrogen became so dense that their cores ignited with the fires of thermonuclear reactions--the sustained hydrogen-bomb explosions, in essence, that we know as stars. But whereas the familiar stars of the Milky Way are mostly similar in mass to the sun, these first stars were, on average, gigantic--at least 25 times as massive as the sun and ranging as much as 100 times as massive, if not more. A star that big burns very hot, shining perhaps a million times brighter than the sun and generating a wind of particles that pushes the surrounding gases outward, keeping them from collapsing on their own to form new stars. The very first galaxies in the young universe may well have been microgalaxies, as theorist Mike Norman of the University of California at San Diego calls them: each one a single, huge, superhot star, surrounded by a halo of hydrogen.
Because they were so hot, the first stars would have poured out not just visible light, but also copious amounts of high-energy ultraviolet radiation. One effect of that radiation would have been to knock apart hydrogen atoms, thus destroying their ability to block light. That process is known as reionization, and those stars, forming perhaps 100 million years into the Dark Ages, or roughly at the era's midpoint, might have rendered the universe transparent on their own if they had lived long enough. But unlike the sun, which has survived 5 billion years so far and should live another 5 billion, those stars lasted only a paltry million years. If the first stars formed 100 million years after the Dark Ages began, they were gone by 101 million years. As they died, the smaller of the stars exploded and spewed their contents back into space, while the bigger ones formed black holes.

BURNING AWAY THE COSMIC FOG

As in any other fusion reaction, the fires that powered these short-lived stars worked by forcing simple hydrogen and helium atoms to meld into heavier, more complex elements. The stars that died explosively spiked the surrounding gas clouds with elements like oxygen and carbon, which had never existed before. Billions of years later, the elements forged in stars like these would be assembled into planets, organic molecules and, ultimately, human beings. At the time, though, they served simply to change the chemistry of the clouds, allowing them to collapse into far smaller objects than they could before. The second generation of stars, incorporating the ashes of the first, arose almost immediately. They were much more like the sun, in both composition and size. And like the sun, they would have started out generating lots of ultraviolet light before settling down to a more sedate existence.

It's this radiation--the ultraviolet light from hot, newly formed stars--that many theorists suspect finally reionized the remaining hydrogen, making it transparent again and bringing the Dark Ages to a close. Others suggest that the process may have been powered instead by black holes spewing out X-rays and ultraviolet light. Or it may have been a combination of hot stars and black holes that cleared the hydrogen and put an end to the Dark Ages.

In any event, the accepted scenario is that this new generation of small galaxies, containing no more than a million second-generation stars, gradually collided, merging to form ever bigger objects that eventually reached the size of the Milky Way. One piece of evidence: the faintest and oldest galaxies found in any great number by the Hubble telescope tend to be small and irregular in shape, not the majestic spirals and huge elliptical galaxies that formed later. Another hint that the merger theory is correct is that the collisions are still going on today. Astronomers can see hundreds of colliding galaxies in their telescopes, and our own Milky Way is still slowly gobbling up the half a dozen or so dwarf galaxies that surround it.
Guessing how the very first stars formed is relatively easy, since the universe was so simple at the start of the Dark Ages. By the end, however, things were starting to get complicated. The stars had begun to affect their environment, and the environment in turn affected the stars in feedback loops that nobody has completely figured out. That's why astronomers want to test their theories with observation, and they will need a new generation of telescopes to do so.

SEEING THE UNSEEABLE

To spot the earliest objects, however, astronomers will have to stop looking for ordinary light. The universe has expanded vastly since its earliest days--but it isn't that galaxies and other objects are flying apart. Rather, it's that space itself has been stretching--a difficult concept even for a physicist to grasp, but which must be true according to the equations of relativity. Cosmologists say you should imagine the universe as a balloon with dots painted on its surface. As the balloon inflates, the dots will get farther apart--not because they're sliding around but because the balloon is stretching.

That being the case, a light beam traveling through expanding space is stretched as well, its wavelength getting longer as it goes. Long-wavelength light is red; stretch it out longer and it becomes infrared light and then microwaves and, finally, long-wavelength radio waves. The flash that came from the Big Bang started out as visible light; by now, 13.7 billion years later, it's still streaming through space, but it has been stretched so much that astronomers have to use microwave antennas to detect it. The earliest galaxies came after the Big Bang, so their light isn't quite as old, hasn't been traveling as long and thus isn't stretched as much. That light should be detectable not as microwaves but as infrared--which is why the new telescopes will be fitted with infrared sensors. It's also why the James Webb telescope, NASA's planned successor to the Hubble, will be optimized to see infrared, not visible light.

Still other telescopes will be trying to take pictures not of the first stars and galaxies, but of the clouds of hydrogen atoms they formed from and that they eventually destroyed. The hydrogen atoms emitted radiation too, in the form of radio waves, and several competing projects in various stages of completion in India, China, the Netherlands and Australia are being designed to see them. The last, known as the Mileura Widefield Array, is considered the most promising because its 500 separate antennas will be located on a remote cattle station in western Australia, far from any interference from earthly radio broadcasts. "The South Pole would be good too," says Jacqueline Hewitt, director of the Institute for Astrophysics and Space Research at M.I.T., which is a partner in the project, "but this is a bit more accessible. We'll need to cut some roads, though."
What makes Mileura and the other projects so powerful is that by tuning the receivers to different radio frequencies, they will be able to pick up signals broadcast by hydrogen atoms at different periods in the Dark Ages. When you map cosmic hydrogen at, say, 50 million years after the Big Bangbefore the first stars had a chance to formthen at 100 million, 200 million or half a billion years later, you get a series of snapshots. Combine them, says Loeb, and "you'll be able to make a 3-D picture of hydrogen gas as the universe evolves. At some point, you'll start to see holes, like Swiss cheese," as the gas clouds become ionized and transparent. Precisely how the holes grow and merge over time will help determine whether the clearing out is being done by small galaxies, big black holes or something entirely different--and depending on which it is, some theorists could be vindicated and others refuted. But astronomers will at last have an answer to the mystery they have puzzled over for a decade and a half.

TANTALIZING CLUES

In the meantime, observers have been chipping away at this mystery as best they can with the tools they have. One important clue comes from the observation of the most distant quasars--objects believed to be giant black holes swallowing huge volumes of gas at the cores of young galaxies. The Sloan Digital Sky Survey, a comprehensive scan of the heavens, has turned up several of these from about a billion years after the Big Bang. By watching how the light of quasars is altered by surrounding gas, astronomers have concluded that there was still some atomic hydrogen around then, although not much.

But the WMAP satellite, launched to look for light left from the Big Bang using a broadly analogous technique, determined the clearing out of hydrogen between the stars was well under way much earlier, just half a billion years post--Big Bang. "Theorists have been telling us that it should have happened fairly quickly once it began," says Michael Strauss, a Princeton University astronomer and deputy project scientist for the Sloan survey. "But the observations may be telling us otherwise."

Indeed, observations often take theorists by surprise. Last fall a focus on one tiny region of the universe by the Hubble, the Spitzer space telescope (which operates in infrared wavelengths) and the European Space Organization's ground-based Very Large Telescope in Chile revealed the existence of a galaxy dating to about 1 billion years after the Big Bang that was far larger and more mature looking than the primordial dwarf galaxies everyone assumed they would see. "It was unexpected," admits Mark Dickinson of the National Optical Astronomy Observatory, in Tucson, Ariz., who worked on the project. "But maybe it shouldn't have been." The theorists might have things all wrong. But it could also simply be that any population will have a few individuals that are way outside the average--humans who stand over 7 ft. tall, for example. They're very noticeable but not at all typical.
Until someone finds better evidence to the contrary, it's safe to assume that the very tiny galaxies filled with second-generation stars were by far the dominant type in the early cosmos. It would also have been safe to assume that nobody could spot them in their earliest incarnation without giant new telescopes--if not for Ellis. "He does like to push the frontiers," says theorist Norman with mixed amusement and respect. "It's always great fun to go to a meeting and see the latest Ellis most-distant-object sweepstakes entry."

EINSTEIN'S GIANT LENS

Ordinarily, Ellis explains, you could never see small galaxies a mere 500 million years after the Big Bang; they're just too faint for any telescope now in existence. But the universe itself has supplied a way of boosting a telescope's magnifying power. The theory of relativity says massive objects warp the space around them, diverting light rays from their original path. In the 1930s Albert Einstein realized this meant a star, say, could act as a lens, distorting and amplifying the light from something behind it. In practice, he said, it probably happens so rarely that we will never see it.

Einstein was wrong. So-called gravitational lenses have become a major factor in modern astronomy. They have revealed, among other things, the existence of tiny planets around stars thousands of light-years away and have created weird optical effects, including multiple images of faraway quasars. If you look at a massive cluster of galaxies, Ellis figured, you might see amplified images of more distant galaxies, too faint to be seen otherwise. So a year or two ago, he started aiming the Keck at galactic clusters, and along with Stark, he identified six candidate objects. To make certain that these were truly far away, the pair has come back to the Keck for a second, more intensive look. "We want to be absolutely sure we aren't fooling ourselves," says Ellis. "Before we claim we've really found them."

For an hour or so, it looked as though they wouldn't get the chance. They had just this one night at the Keck; the telescope is so overbooked that even an eminent astronomer like Ellis has to wait his turn, and his next observing run isn't until January 2007. But the engineers this night have figured out the problem. When Stark entered his user name in the online telescope log, he made a typo. Every time the focusing routine came upon it, the program froze. The typo has now been corrected. The Keck can focus again, and to their delight, Stark and Ellis are able to confirm that at least three of their faint galaxies do seem to lie hundreds of millions of light-years farther awayand hundreds of millions of years closer to the Big Bangthan anything ever seen before.



About 13.7 billion years ago, the universe burst into existence, creating everything it is now

...13.7 billion years later

Albert Einstein suggested that gravity from a massive foreground object could distort and magnify background objects.

By looking through a cluster of galaxies, astronomers have now found the magnified images of much more distant galaxies"


The next decade promises to be the most exciting yet, old theories will be discarded while new ones are born. We simply have to know where and how to look.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

I have some major problems with the dots on the skin of an expanding balloon analogy of the universe. Maybe I am taking it too literally. It is just easier for me to grasp the universe is expanding period.

First off this skin would have to be very thick to account for the 3-D of the universe.

Second about this hollow interior: In the first and second formation and explosion of stars, stuff should have been shot back into this hollow interior by all the collisions and explosions during formation of the galaxies. Perhaps this core could be less dense or have fewer galaxies, but would it be empty?

If there is a hollow core it should be substantially large by now, larger than the universe itself. Wouldn't we be able to detect it or is this where the opague nature of hydrogen gas or plasma comes in?

If we cannot detect this hollow core or see through it, but they are certain from physics and math that it should be there then we have to be unable to see the vast majority of the universe.

Explanation por favor.

Richard Yarnell said...

Yup, it's hollow, or at least that's the latest theory, which, so far, agrees with what's observed.

And we are looking toward the center. However, what we see is what was there, billions of years ago. I think the last Hubble image got to within a little less than a billion years after the BB. And recall that they estimate the plasma state didn't cool down until the Universe was between 300,000 and 500,000 years in diameter. That's apparently the limit of what we'll be able to see.

I don't know how "thick" the skin of the balloon is. But even if it's 10's or 100's of millions of years thick that's a small part of even 13 Billion. (Our former governor has a Power Point lecture designed to sell his idea for universal health care. In it, he's talking about very large numbers of dollars. He has a very graphic analogy that goes - a million seconds ago, was early last week; a billion seconds ago was around the time was taking his last ride on Marine 1; a trillion seconds ago it was around 30,000 BC.)

The reason it's important to understand that the universe is hollow and that the balloon analogy is accurate, is to account for the prevalence of the red shift - the signal that all those billions of observable galaxies are moving away from us. Local stars, and I presume even nearby galaxies don't show that shift and there is at least one that will collide with our own in several 10's of millions of years. And we can observe other galaxies that have already or are about to collide. There's plenty of activity, but just not in the center, which we will never be able to see because it will be a ball of plasma too energetic to penetrate.

I think what makes it hard to grasp is that the farther we look, the older is the light we see. Put it differently: when we spot a galaxy that appears to be 5 billion light years away, that galaxy has had 5 billion years to travel since we detect it. And the balloon, making the leap of faith that the other side of the singularity or origin completes the sphere, the total volume of our universe is on the order of 26-30 Billion light years in diameter (175,970,880,000,000,000,000,000 miles).

To cast what we see in what is now thought to be the hollow interior, what is obscuring our vision, is history.

Richard Yarnell said...

JG's article didn't appear until after I'd read and answered CC's. It appears that what I said is close to what the Time article portrays (Suggestion, JG: when you quote an entire copyrighted article, always include the author, source, and date) except that I attributed radiation beyond infrared to temperature change and the author cites an extension of the "doppler effect" and Albert's rules.

If you search the NASA site, I think you'll find the maps that they've calculated from the IMAP data.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

So then it is cosmically true, We never seem to learn anything from our history.

Richard Yarnell said...

I'm not sure what that means CC.

Take a look at:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030814.html which shows an example of gravitational lensing. (BTW, if you're not familiar with APOD, it presents a different astronomical photo each day. It has an archive that you can access at the bottom of the page. However, you should be forewarned: you can spend a lot of time looking at all those wonderful photos, especially if you read the description and explore the links.)

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/

Which describes the WMAP mission and does have a map of the early glow. It also has a timeline that appears as a cylindar since it is depicting, as I understand it, what the telescope is looking at.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

"what is obscuring our vision, is history" ... never learn anything from history

Yes I can see how you can wander off into the ether at that site. I will need to bookmark it.

Richard Yarnell said...

We probably don't learn enough from history - we're having a debate on my College class of '64 site as to just how informative history could have been regarding our invasion of Iraq and our handling (nor not) of the Israel/Palestine/Lebanon embroglio - but in the case of our Universe, history itself obscures our vision. We'd learn from it if we could see past it.

I would point out, however, that in this case, there is no way for us to apply what we observe to any future event in a way that would influence it's outcome. The analogy is not apt.

I'm heading for the sack.

Judy B. said...

Dan..."dreamers, unrestrained by scientific methods, sometimes discover a truth that scientists later confirm. But I suspect that it's also likely that dreamer's are often wrong and we rely on scientists to sort that out."

I agree completelyu...

Anonymous said...

"Dan..."dreamers, unrestrained by scientific methods, sometimes discover a truth that scientists later confirm. But I suspect that it's also likely that dreamer's are often wrong and we rely on scientists to sort that out."

Don't mean to go against the grain...But I could not disagree more. Scientists prove each other wrong/right and more times than not prove the dreamers accurate or at least headed in the right direction and as Richard stated, the best scientists have the greatest imaginations. dreamers just lack the resources and education to realize or prove their Theories. That is where scientists come in, more often than not, scientists are pursuing different avenues of research based on who is funding their work and possible theories (imaginations) are not explored. Based on funding priorities many times scientists are compelled to teach as oppose to listen, when listening would possibly save them a lot of needless research. This view is based on experience not expertise. What many perceive as laziness in a dreamer is simply a DIAL UP connection...

Richard,
if I am understanding your explanation as to the size of the universe, that means we understand it to be finite as opposed to infinite, beginning and an end, what is at the other side of those dimensions. something has to be? an opposite universe maybe?
gotta go for now. thanx folks.

Your friend John G.

Richard Yarnell said...

JG,

I'd say, "that depends."

If what you mean by finite is that it has boundaries, then as I understand it, yes. The boundary being the expanding sphere which contains all the matter and energy presumed to have been unleashed 13-14 billion years ago.

However, if it turns out that inflation will go on, that matter is so dispersed that gravity cannot call the matter home again, then in a sense, the universe is boundless. It will continue to expand although the matter in it will become less and less dense.

What happens if our "universe" bumps up against an adjacent one, if there are any, I haven't a clue. And if what we define as "the Universe" is only one of many, just as our galaxy is but one of billions, will we ever know it, does it matter, and do we expand our definition of Universe to accommodate such a situation: I'll leave those questions to others.

I've got to say, now that you've told me you have solicited readers (lurkers) from NASA, I find I'm looking over my shoulder as I write. Too bad they don't chip in with, what I presume should be, their better informed opinions on the subject.

Anonymous said...

LOL,
Well they are probably at the low end of the NASA pyramid, janitors and such, yet they tend to be the ones with all the access to the trash. As for universities they are mostly law students. Yet both these I am sure have connections I do not enjoy. As of today you are senior (go to for the cold hard facts) in the knowledge/fact area.
You write so eloquently it is allurring to the average soul. One student was studying to become a CSI and found some of your postings about the universe helpful?

I would think it does matter if there is anything to string theory, and we will eventually possess the technology to answer those questions for the sake of understanding what many believe is other dimensions. As science advances and proves theories, like anything else the universe to us will appear much much smaller. The internet to our world is a good example. If that rush of technology comes relatively quickly a parallell or opposing universe will inevitably be the next frontier.

Thanx again. your friend John G.

dan said...

JG, Scientists who need to make a living, must do the research that someone is willing to pay for and hobbyists have no such handicap. The very best research happens when the greatest minds are given wide open grants to conduct pure research. (much like an artist whose living expenses are funded,can produce art without regard to its potential to generate revenue). I believe tax money spent on funding artists and scientists is a wise investment.

I'd agree with you and Richard that the best scientists have the greatest imaginations (and I suppose the most creative dreamers have a good deal of scientific knowledge, as you and Judy have demonstrated).

I guess reading the blog, I just sensed a mild criticism of scientists, that they generally lack imagination. I suspect that since their role is to *prove* not just *speculate* it's not fair to make that assumption.

The world needs scientists and dreamers ( and individuals who do both). The danger is when speculation is presented as fact or if it's concluded that science has resolved an issue. All *knowledge* should be subject to on going review.

Well, we're off to Rochester for the holiday weekend to visit the grandsons. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

Richard Yarnell said...

Of scientists and imagination

Whether it's properly classified as imagination, as I think it is, the scientists who seem to make the discoveries, are most often those who can, or can and are willing to risk, thinking outside the conventional box.

Scientists, the good ones, can do that and then knuckle down either to do the nitty gritty, repetetive, grunt work that organizes and then executes an experiment in such a fashion that it passes peer review muster - either that or they sit back and crack the whip over a grad assistant or three and let them do the grunt work.

Engineers: a few of them are artists who have imagination and the training to know when to stop and when they can force the laws of physics just a bit further. Architects and designers, for example. But there are a lot of engineers who, like accountants, are meticulous and try to avoid surprises.

Boy, am I in big trouble with the world at large.

Anonymous said...

Great points Dan! Yeah as I reread my posts I can see where you got that sense. I stand corrected and apologize to those have put in the sweat if it came across as a wholesale insult. As is evident in the media, emphasis has not been put on science since the days of apollo and the imaginations of the young have not been challenged enough to encourage new minds into scientific fields. The simple fact that Einstein was the last great mind to achieve international recognition is some evidence of that. Too many times textbooks and scientific journals go unchallenged for years before being disproven as witnessed with PLUTO...

Here is a stretch from a 16 year old kid who dreams of being a fighter pilot, he has followed this blog and has just posed a very good question.

What is the possibilty, considering the scale of space and time in relation to the big bang, That Black holes are wormholes of super intense gravity feeding back to the core (center of the universe) and every few billion years the big bang repeats itself? Resulting in "us" being pushed further out or simply recycling "us"
His analogy, the swimming pool in the TIME article, Imagine a leaky faucet in the center of the pool, when enough water accumalates on the end of the spout it drops into the pool creating the ripples one would expect?

GOOD QUESTION!

The world needs you Richard. I feel confident when you know more about me and the young people I represent, You will see we are simply the result of public education and earned our scholorships and grants to higher learning or interesting employment through curiosoty and the relationships we form with those with much to offer to satisfy our curiosity.
My daughter has promised to help me get to my e-mail or create me another so we may communicate off blog in the near future. Hopefully this will put many at ease as to my simple family oriented lifestyle. Until then, laugh at me (us) everybody else does. Life is fun.

Judy I cannot wait till monday, my leg is mad as heck.

your friend John G.

Judy B. said...

John.... I send you prayers, energy and healing all the time...
There are other methods for relief of pain... Have they tried acupuncture....
If there isn't an accupuncturist on staff, perhaps you could get a massage therapist to show you some of the reflex points in your hand that you could massage yourself to help with the pain... Accupressure is very related..

Check out this web site...
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/BackPain/

Not knowing the specifics of your care and your injury, it would be unwise for me to suggest something that could in fact aggravate your problem...
Having said that, I would ask the staff if there is someone who could help ypou with meditation, creative visualozation, ...

Judy B. said...

John g... I get the distinct "feeling" that you have blocked energy... this can be caused by physical injury and/or emotional trauma...
if you are "stuffing" your emotions, it might be good to talk with a professional to help release the past...

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

“So then it is cosmically true, We never seem to learn anything from our history.”

It was late you were tired, this was meant as a Ry joke not a studious scientific analogy.

Do you think your Class of 64’ discussion group would agree that history as it is colored and embellished by the hot gasses from the puffed up egos of the victors or survivors who write this stuff down might obscure from us the reality, truth and beginning of many events in history contributing to our inabilty it seems to learn much from it?

deb said...

WoW! Fascinating thread!

Interesting point JG and Dan about the lack of scientific knowledge.

My Dad was a brilliant electrical engineer. He was frustrated that the college graduates that he hired didn't have a clue as to how things worked. What is missing in our educational system?

Richard, you stated earlier that life on the farm led to much of your knowledge. My Dad grew up during the depression in a coal camp and pretty much survival depended upon knowing how to fix or make what was needed. Perhaps instead of giving our kids cars, x boxes and I pods, we should be giving them the parts to make them;)

Questions:
How close are we to that "edge" of the universe?

I searched a bit at the hubble site and didn't find anything, but have we taken any pics of the "edge"? Does it just look empty and black past the stars that are the closest to it?

deb said...

Learning from history: Perhaps the greatest lesson we should be teaching is how to recognize the Snake Oil Medicine Shows for what they are.

Cheryl said...

When it comes to bridge building, meticulous is good. I don't like the surprise of it falling down.

I think we've pretty much agreed that there is a place for both creative and structured thinking.

Einstein isn't the last. Richard Feynman comes to mind. He's a fascinating character.

One of my college roomates was an education major. According to her, about half the class was there because they wanted to teach. The other half was there because it was the one major that didn't require algebra. We have a bunch of math phobes teaching our kids.

Anonymous said...

God question about the Edge of the universe Deb, That was my next question. Thank You

Judy,
My daughter, mom, and secratary agree. I heard them talking about me and too much time on the computer last night. My daughter instigated it, my mom is coming over and my secratary is coming to get her computer...:-(
So I may not post for a few days after this, but rest assured...
"I'll b Bak"

Thanx everybody, love your new blog...

Your friend John G.

Richard Yarnell said...

If I'd known about this cornucopia of informaton about remote sensing and the big bang, I could have simply provided the URL.

Look at Section 20. Anything you don't understand, Dan will explain.

Richard Yarnell said...

If I'd known about this cornucopia of informaton about remote sensing and the big bang, I could have simply provided the URL.

Look at Section 20. Anything you don't understand, Dan will explain.

http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Front/tofc.html

Anonymous said...

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/seti_optical_searches/


"This new search apparatus performs one trillion measurements per second and expands by 100,000-fold the sky coverage of our previous optical search,"
- Paul Horowitz.

dan said...

Richard,
Re: "Look at Section 20. Anything you don't understand, Dan will explain."

I presume you're talking about some other Dan. As interesting as I found the content of section 20, I wouldn't be the person qualified to explain it to anyone.