Friday, September 01, 2006

SPACE
















Hubble Ultra Deep Field

Feel Free to Fly

SomeWhere Out There
If love can see us through,
Then, we'll be together,

Somewhere out there,
out where dreams,
come true.

In that big somewhere out there.

225 comments:

1 – 200 of 225   Newer›   Newest»
christin m p in massachusetts said...

That's a beautiful poem, Christopher. Is it yours?

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

Linda Rhonstadt

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Oh yeah, I can hear the song in my head now...

Hmm, I never would've thought that was Linda Ronstadt.

But then again, she has the most incredibly diverse range of styles -- she's definitely not a musical snob or poser. She's an artist through and through.

Anonymous said...

AWESOME!!!

THANK YOU, Hard to believe all those dots are entire galaxies, some thousands of times bigger than the milky way. It took their light so long to get here they may not even be there anymore. sigh:-(
so much to see, so little time...

deb said...

That is one of my favorite Hubble pics, Christopher, thanks. I remember seeing it when it was taken. The article said that the Hubble was pointed toward a "dark" area of the universe to see what was there, low and behold there was plenty.

Anonymous said...

NASA spends many billions every year on space exploration projects.

Should Private Industry and other nations be welcomed into a more Joint international effort, providing a huge influx of resources, expertise and international goodwill and redefine it's role as the world leader as opposed to the only game in town?

Initially I am in favor of broader participation, considering our growing global economy...

What are the Pro's and con's of breaking up NASA'S monopoly?

Your friend John G.

Richard Yarnell said...

I think you'd be surprised at the amount of cooperation that goes on. There aren't that many economies that can afford to participate.

Russia's space program has become a revenue center; China seems to be working on the old Soviet Model; The EU already has a cooperative program and it, in turns, participates in our experiments and vice-versa.

To the extent that technology overlaps with military research and deployment, we, in particular, and I suspect China, will balk at turning over our processes to potential enemies. You'll recall the dust-up when such secrets were transferred to China, inadvertantly.

Unfortunately, it appears that this administration is cutting back on the earth observation programs that are in the public eye. Don't know of course, but suspect that the funding has been transferred to spy satellite programs of the military.

Cheryl said...

Just in case any of you haven't heard of the group. They are both space and environmentally concerned.

The mission of the International Dark-Sky Association (IDA) is to preserve and protect the nighttime environment and our heritage of dark skies through quality outdoor lighting.

http://www.darksky.org/

Judy B. said...

Cheryl, interestingly enough, John A brought this to our attention way back at SSB... I remember posting some concerns about low income areas of cities wanting bright outdoor lighting and wondered how it might impact them...
I do think it is very worthy of consideration..

deb said...

This conversation reminded me of a sallelite photo of earth at night.

Judy B. said...

Thanks for posting that picture Deb... I've seen it before, but this one seems to have more detail...
I am afraid that the coming climate changes and all they bring are going to effect all of those "lights" more than the dark spots....
My Psychic friend (the real thing) has suggested to me that we keep our property... or move to Australia with him... Several years ago he "felt" a major shift coming and bought 120 Acres of rural property in Australia, all self sustaining, and now he spends most of the year there.... For you non -believers, I wish you could have a reading from him... It would change the way you see things....

Richard Yarnell said...

The installation of light in low income areas of a city aren't even part of the equation. There's already so mucyh light polution in urban areas.

Keeping some areas isolated from encroaching light surely is.

Two large telescopes come to mind, Wilson and Palomar in Southern California. Palomar observatory is about 40 miles or more from San Diego. It is no longer considered isolated. On top of that, ticky-tack housing developments have filled in the space between San Diego and LA on the inland corridor that used to be called 395. The 200" Hale telescope is, while not useless, not useable for extremely long exposures.

We're about 25 miles from Portland and have a hill intervening. There's a perpetual sunrise glow north west of us above that hill.

A serious problem.

Judy B. said...

I agree Richard... and I remember while serving on City Council that the Feds handed out money to the locals (thru block grants) that could only be used in low income areas... Public comments helped make the decision about how the money was spent... Those who spoke up promoted more lighting to combat crime... and they got what they asked for...
Not that I think that is the best use for the money, but people speak up (and vote) about things that they "know"...

deb said...

Changing the subject ever so slightly...

Bright ideas LED technology finally cracks the home decor market

"But with LEDs we had to build the fixture around the light."

"This means that when your lightingBrilliance lamp burns out after about 20,000 hours of use (that's about 15 years' worth), you'll have to throw it out. But by then, she says, the lamp will have more than paid for itself."

LED article at Wiki

Professor Gets $1.2 Million Tech Prize

I intend to look into using LED whereever possible as I build my cottage.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

"But softer, warmer-looking LED lamps are currently in development, says Laura Fuller, director of marketing for Osram Sylvania, the North American lighting arm of German giant Osram."

That's a very important feature for me. My apartment has five rooms plus a small storage room with around 1000 square feet of total living space. I use compact fluorescent lights almost everywhere around the house, except I still use soft white incandescent lighting in my bedroom. I can't seem to find a compact fluorescent bulb that casts the same pretty light as soft-white incandescent bulbs do, although I will say that many of the compact fluorescents are a major improvement over the harsh glare of the old standard fluorescent tubes.

I think a lot of people will be reluctant to sacrifice aesthetic appeal for eco-friendliness. So the sooner Osram Sylvania can get those warmer-looking LED lamps to market the better.

Richard Yarnell said...

You can already mix the colors in a LED fixture - some do. A couple of yellow cells and a red one mixed in with a gang of white does wonders.

They're dimmable too, unlike, so far as I know, CF's.

deb said...

JG, You aren't alone
;-)

deb said...

Largest Known Planet Discovered, Astronomers Announce

Anonymous said...

"earth at night" cool.

Leads me to wonder, knowing what we do about light variations as it passes through the atmosphere and (northern lights) and other elements...our atmosphere is as unique as DNA in the galactic cosmic soup. Perhaps we could use SETI OPTICAL TELESCOPE to find planets which generate the same light characteristics as our earth, based on all the variables, this would increase our chances of finding a planet capable of supporting life forms. Imagine if we could power all those lights with clean, alternative, renewable green energy, that initself would reduce billions of tons of greenhouse gases.
Ever wonder if SHOEMAKER LEVY NINE came around every few thousand years (would have been ten or eleven then) like HALE BOP and slammed EARTH wiping out civilizations? The ancients knew this and predicted our demise when it returned as well as try to warn us...Luckily there was another planet in the way this time so we were spared for a few thousand years, how did we get so lucky?

Your friend John G.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Deb,
I was struck by this artist's rendering from within your link:

Early Earth

I realize that Earth would have been hostile to any life back then, but it sure is a magnificent sight.

Anonymous said...

Another great site Deb...one could get lost quick...
There is a link from this last site which makes the argument about sending messages through matter as opposed to radio signals by other intelligent beings within our universe. It made me think of that crazy picture on another one of your links which showed an asteroid with some sort of mfg. device on it. I am going back to the site for a while.
Judy, still with us?

Your friend John G.

Anonymous said...

"Earth at night" has led me all over the net. Leads me to this conclusion "Sustainable resource Industries" was a bad IDEA. If I am correct in assuming his goal was to R&D alternative fuels on a regional basis. Geo thermals here, wind there, nuclear over yonder, clean coal round about and hybrid vehicles.etc.
Several years ago I read an article about the city of Atlanta and how building practices, materials, zoning and infrastructure of the city caused it to effect and create it's own adverse weather, which made sense if there is anything to 'STRING THEORY"
If we as a civilization venture off into our own little villages of independent Energy sources without regards to what the village up the road is doing, what adverse effects will we create on a global scale?
I used to travel from Columbus to Birmingham (I am sure you know the road Deb) Not once did I fail to run through sudden lightning storms and downpours. I had been told by locals they called this tornado alley and these storm fronts followed the terrestrial valleys from the gulf up to the foot hills and at some point hit the jet stream, end result, these sudden and unpredictable storms.
If we are not careful in planning alternative energy sources and there side effects globally, we risk creating a more unpredictable and inhospitable environment than we have now. What steps are being taken to coordinate these new technologies on a global scale while achieving our goals of regional independence?

JG

Judy B. said...

Yes, JG, I am still here, but only on a limited basis... If I were to follow up all the links here and then go off and do my own research, I wouldn't have time to do anything else... and my life is full with other things.. primarily to others health concerns.. I didn't know that i was going to turn into a perpetual care-giver...
Speaking of health issues, JG, how are you doing???
Your comments on energy and weather conditions is also one that I have thought about... let us know what else you find out...

Anonymous said...

OK, I will. It just occurred to me the other night after reading many of Deb's links and studying the earth lights link, what if all these little regional industries have the same effect as clearing the rainforests, who's looking?

Thanx for asking. As of right now I am slowly losing the use of my right leg and the left is starting to bother me somewhat. I would be telling a story if I did not admit I am scared to death (not quite) right now...
Your friend JG

Richard Yarnell said...

JG,

If you haven't already, get to your MD. I had a similar experience while recovering from my fall - no known back injury. It turned out to be the position I was being placed in. It's been so long, I don't recall whether there was any long term danger, but I know that, psychologically, I was a wreck until I was told what the problem really was. Hope that's it.

Anonymous said...

Thanx Richard...going today.

Heh Judy, remember this?

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20060918&ID=6027693

Ford and GM discuss merger, or at least an alliance?

Judy B. said...

JG>>>If the doctors aren't able to help you, get a second or third opinion... sometimes docs thinking gets ingrained and they cannot see what is right in front of them... Maybe thinking out side the box is needed...

deb said...

JG, positioning IS a key consideration, and along with positioning start thinking outside of the box as Judy suggests. I posted some suggestions about using memory foam, pillows and rolled towels. Trust me, these positioning tools can put your body in a position to get the stress off of the injured area.

This is a copy and paste from the old admin thread:

"I spent quite a few years working with kids that had disabilities. For a person with physical limitations and injuries positioning is the key. If it hurts your body is telling you something...don't put yourself in that position. Since you can't adapt yourself to certain positions you must adapt your environment to the positions that you are comfortable in. Buy a "memory foam" topper for your bed, fabric stores sometimes sell them. Buy extra pillows and at least one "memory foam" (maybe 2) to sit on in the car and when sitting in chairs. Learn to sleep in a position that takes all of the stress off of your back...it will be trial and error, but I suggest start out on your side holding a big, firm pillow and allowing the leg that hurts to rest on top of that pillow. Have your daughter tuck other pillows (or towel roll) against your back. If this puts you into a painless position then learn to sleep that way...if not keep experimenting until all (or most) of the stress is off that injury. Think outside of the box...just because you have learned to lay flat on a bed to sleep doesn't mean it can't be done another way...use those pillows. Putting pillows in a row under the memory foam to support your side at the waist might relieve the stress on the spine. Another option besides pillows is making a roll from a towel or hand towel. Rolling a towel lengthwise and duct taping the "seam" may well give you a positioning tool that might be effective for you.

Strenghten your immune system. Vitamins D (especially) and C, CoQ10 and magnesium are essential. You can get D from the sun...could you get in a position to lay where you get direct sunlight on your back several times a day? C is easily obtained from citrus fruit...fresh fruit is better than boxed juice. This CoQ10 link was done with a quick search so I didn't thoroughly read it, but if there isn't enough info do another search. CoQ10 really is a primary building block for all of our cells. Magnesium...can you soak in the bathtub? If so soak in epsom salt for a half hour every day. Magnesium absorbs through the skin into the muscles better than by taking a suppplement. Use a whole carton in every bath. Epsom salt is cheap and available at the dollar store.

And for anyone else reading...these 4 substances will generate health for anyone.

JG, I know that you are a strong do-it-yourselfer...slow down (yes, even further) and allow yourself time to heal. Experiment with all positions...move your pc to where you don't have to get into a bad position to use it...you have plenty of creative ideas...use that talent to (help) heal yourself."

I am going to find out the name of the doctor that treated my brother-in-law (Tim). She is in Birmingham. She initially was a vet, but was such an awesome surgeon and neurosurgeon that fellow doctors suggested that she go to med school. Tim is now able to do everything except long car rides, and other doctors had given him a poor prognosis. I hope that you would be able to see a doctor in another state because I do know that she is one of the best for back injuries.

Discover what precipitates the numbness and the times of good function. Use the positioning materials to ascertain if you can reposition yourself to maintain good function. I promise you I have seen unbelievable results using memory foam and positioning.

One last thing, each person and injury is unique. Medical science cannot be perfect in this situation. You should positively gleen all of the good information your doctor and therapists are giving, but, you should analyze and sort that information as to what works and what doesn't. Doing everything that your medical team says isn't always the best answer. Using a combination of what the medical team says and what your body is telling you is a better solution. But, by all means, disscuss what your body tells you that is contradictory to what the medical team says with the medical team.

Here is one site that sells positioning equipment: back cushions

Take care of yourself my friend, and keep us posted.

Cheryl said...

JG,
Pester those doctors till you get an answer. Consider seeing a neurologist. They tend to be booked for several months, so you can schedule an appointment now. If it turns out you don't need it, you can cancel it. If you do need it, you won't have to wait so long.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

"It just occurred to me the other night after reading many of Deb's links and studying the earth lights link, what if all these little regional industries have the same effect as clearing the rainforests, who's looking?"

John,
I think the very same thing all the time. I can't help but be compelled to reiterate: Small is Beautiful

Judy B. said...

JG...
I suggest checking out alternative therapies as well...
I really reccommend accupuncture, on a regular bqsis for awhile, vor pain...
My daughter goes twice a week and it really helps...
Also various types of massage and accupressure...

One of the things that happens when our body gets injured is that our musscles tense up, tp hold us in a comfortable position... and then the "comfortable" position becomes so stressed that the body responds in other ways to compensate...
Quite frequently the pain/numbness etc is coming from a secondary "injury" steming from our desire to protect the initial injury...
A GOOD massage therapist may be able to help you.
One thing is for certain, YOU have to take charge of your body... no one else is going to do it for you...

Anonymous said...

2 interesting links.


http://www.discover.com/issues/aug-06/rd/map4d/

earths 4th dimension

http://www.discover.com/issues/oct-06/cover/

The Final frontier, end of science?

JG

deb said...

JG, This is the doctor: Melissa R. Chambers, M.D., D.V.M.

Our family has good connections with the medical community in the Birmingham area. When Tim injured his back, my sister asked our friends who they should use for a doctor. Dr. Chambers was virtually insisted upon by our neighbor who recently retired as Hospital Administrator at a different hospital. She was recommended by other friends in the health community, also.

If it is possible for you to be treated out-of-state you might want to meet with her.

I did a Mapquest from Columbus to Bessemer, which shows to go through Montgomery, but it is quicker to go up 280 to 459 then toward Tuscaloosa to Bessemer. Should take less that 3 hours, depending on how close you are to Columbus.

Hope this is helpful.

deb said...

The newest in LBT

Judy B. said...

More LBT in progress...
A recent AP story about Solar power and how the big chip makers (AMD)are building on their expertise in silicon based technologies and are beginnning to make tools to sell for the manufacturing of solar cells...

That is really good news...

While reading the book "Waking Up In Time" by Peter Russell, I found the following: "Evolution mediated by human minds and hands has been able to create in years developments that would have taken genetic processes alone millions of years--or that might never have occured at all. The solar cell, for example, represents a totally new method of capturing the sun's energy- -converting it directly into electricity. This is as significant a breakthrough as the development of photosynthesis itself, some three billion years ago."

Richard Yarnell said...

In 1977, a pair of wanderers were launched toward the gas giants. Notwithstanding the wonderful treatment V ger got from the Star Trek folks, both of them are still working and being polled on a daily basis. The fact that we can hear them at all from a distance, I think, of some 10 Billion miles, is a miracle. The radio operates on either 8 or 25 watts.

Anyway, V1 is a little ahead and is now in the helioshock, the margin between the heliosphere and the rest of the galaxy, if not the universe.

There are all kinds of things that NASA can't explain: little fluctuations in gravity; speed of the solar wind (around 10% of what was expected); a new source (probably local) for "cosmic rays."

But the most amazing thing is that NASA believes that 10 years from now, when V1 breaks out of that shock wave, they'll still be logging data. That is, unless someone happens by and salvages the parts.

Anonymous said...

"That is, unless someone happens by and salvages the parts."

uratrip:-)

"There are all kinds of things that NASA can't explain:"
That's where you come in Richard...

end of science? we (mankind) are not that smart, although scientific studies suggest otherwise...

Thanx for the links all.

LBT?
Stay tuned...The best is yet to come.
SETI OPTICAL TELESCOPE...
& You will not have to wait until 2012, promise.

JG

Anonymous said...

MORE LINKS

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/seti_optical_searches/bb_oseti.html

UPDATE ON SETI OPTICAL

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/apophis_competition/

REWARD OFFERED FOR PLANS TO DEFLECT ASTEROID IMPACT 2036

Put pulsating lasers on it, which can be detected by seti optical...it may appear initially that it will not impact us, yet if it goes through another unforeseen gravitational force, we will know from a much greater distance. Also you never know when ET will detect the signal as well...
Heck just put seti optical on the sucker for a free ride and extend our view, this would be possible if SETI OPTICAL goes remote...

JG

Anonymous said...

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/apophis_competition/

deb said...

Richard, I poked around at the Nasa site to read up on the V1 and V2 spaceships and had no luck. I can't remember when I had heard any info, and actually thought they were out of range to us. Do you have the link?

JG, Getting hit by an asteroid will have to get in line on my list of priorities.

I anxiously await the discoveries of SETI!

Richard Yarnell said...

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/

Anonymous said...

Quote from Richard's link JPL article;
"At the speed of light, it takes 13 hours and 49 minutes for a signal from Voyager 1 to reach one of the giant antennas of the DSN, and 11 hours and 3 minutes for Voyager 2, which is about 80 AU away."

Would it be possible to upgrade the voyager spacecraft communications with a laser (LBT)? Speeding up as well as increasing the distance from which we can receive signals from the "V" crafts.

Even if that means sending out more craft and building a bridge or "bucket brigade"?
Example; The "V" crafts signals are piggybacked off from spacecrafts which are launched periodically so as to be received and retransmitted from crafts closer to earth, in effect we could receive signals as long as the power sources of the original crafts power sources hold out, it would be a simple matter of adding more links (crafts) to the ever growing chain?

JG

P.S. How do I make blue links to sites like you folks do?

deb said...

Thanks Richard!

JG,

{A href="http://news.yahoo.com/"}Yahoo News{/A}

Only instead of { use < and } use >

If I do it exactly it will make the blue link and not show you what I did. There is only 1 space before the first > and that is between A href. You HAVE to put the URL in quotes.

I am redoing the above substituting {'s for <'s so you can see what that link looks like.

Yahoo News

I know I got excited when I lkearned this trick, but it really makes for more typing and it is easy to scroll, copy and paste URL's. I really enjoy links and appreciate them either way.

Richard Yarnell said...

Radio waves and lasers both travel at the speed of light, so even if you could get someone out there to refit V ger with a laser rig, there would be no improvement in terms of time. It might improve the speed of transmission (bits per second) but the travel time would remain the same.

The space craft are travelling at about 9 miles/second or 32,000 mph. Unless you put a lot of energy behind a new spacecraft, the relative distance wouldn't improve much. and there would be the delay wile the chase machine retransmitted the data from V ger to earth.

Given the fact that both craft are nearing their design life, and both are vulnerable to damage by very high energy particles, it's probably not worth it.

I know that you're thinking that the farther away the V gers get, the less reliable will the reception of their signals become. That's true. However, we can focus multiple very large antennae on V ger. The chase spacecraft would have to have a very large antenna to do as well, even accounting for atmospheric interference.

However, once again, I refer you to future hisstory that's already been reported: V ger will transform itself - you and I won't be around the see the result, but it will happen.

John G. said...

" V ger will transform itself - you and I won't be around the see the result, but it will happen.'

Please elaborate...

Richard Yarnell said...

History of two or three hundred years in the future has already been written. I'm sure you've seen it. Captain Kirk and crew are almost defeated by V ger until Kirk gives V ger a contradictory command that causes the old computer to crash.

I think the story is that Voyager somehow is collected or begins collecting - anyway, there's some robot sex involved - other wayfaring pieces of robotic junk which they eventually reassemble in a nearly invulnerable bit of equipment: "V ger" since by the time it becomes self-aware, the "oy" had been burned off. The key is that Voyager was given the instruction to accumulate information. By the time V ger is rediscovered, you and I, I think, will be dead.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

For creating links, Christopher's instructions in the original "Art" thread (posted on January 29, 2006 at 7:26 PM) were the easiest for me to follow once I finally got around to trying it:

The code is < A HREF="address" > and the WORD you want < /A > Eliminate the spaces except for the one between A+HREF. The whole http address goes where it says address inside the " marks."

John G. said...

I Love Star trek!
It will not really happen like that!? will it?

"Radio waves and lasers both travel at the speed of light, so even if you could get someone out there to refit V ger with a laser rig, there would be no improvement in terms of time. It might improve the speed of transmission (bits per second) but the travel time would remain the same."

Kind of like the difference between dial up and dsl?

We need to send more voyagers, new and improved versions...

JG

Richard Yarnell said...

Yup. Sending men to Mars is is a fools errand at this point. The science that our robotic explorers have done is huge. I won't forgive them if they don't upgrade Hubble.

Write to your Congressmen and demand they put NASA back on the unmanned, scientific, path at which it excels. Demand that they reconstitute to Earth surveys that have been taken off line (IMO that's the way Bush gets away with ignoring environmental programs - eliminate the most efficient way of gather the data and then withhold funding from the boots on the ground studies.

We need the eyes in the sky.

(I can be persuaded to returning to the moon, but on the schedule proposed for the trip to Mars. There's some real science that could be done at a permanent station on the Moon provided there is water. If there's no water, give the moon back to lovers.

John G. said...

I read an article yesterday (can't find it this am) on msn. The european space agency has acquired the highest resolution images to date of the cydonia complex, notably the "face" image...They are sand dunes.
Is it true everytime a spacecraft is shot into space it damages our ozone?

John G. said...

There is water on the moon.

BIG BANG? Imagine a tennis ball packed with firecrackers, boom! it explodes, debris will be shot out in every direction and it will not be uniform. With this in mind, it is easy to Imagine we may be on the wrong side of the universe...
Let's Imagine for a moment we were on the weak side of the explosion and most of the life generating elements (water) were sent the other way. Basically the other side of the universe is rich with life bearing systems, we were the exception?
Something to think about...

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Come check out the Anousheh Ansari Space Blog.

A few of the comments are in Persian, but it looks like so far most of them are in English.

Cheryl said...

Cities in Iceland are turning out their lights Thursday so everyone can see the night sky.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060927/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_iceland_lights

John G. said...

There will be a special on the national geographic channel on 10/02/2006 about the lost city of Atlantis 8 EST.

John G. said...

I did not know there were carvings of helicopters, Subs and UFO'S on the pyramids...very interesting.
Have we ever found pyramids under water? Have we ever looked? Why don't the egyptians allow archeologists to dig around Giza?
Were the atlanteans time travelers?
Are they still here? ABC's LOST series, could this storyline be taking us towards an Atlantis connection? Was the last recorded evidence of global warming about 10,000 years ago?
There is a lot of interesting evidence of past and advanced civilizations, some we cannot duplicate...very, very interesting
Is it possible past civilizations sent out their own VOYAGER'S? And they are due back in 2012?

deb said...

I missed the Nat. Geo. special...sounds as if it was good.

More LBT:
Quantum information teleported from light to matter

John G. said...

Great link. Interesting how we talk about this stuff and it is then published mainstream as if they have been working on it for years...

I know this is on the bottom of your list, I thought it may interest you. Put SETI optical on it and send us the check :-)

"Using the best telescopes existing now, and allowing for inevitable uncertainties, we will be able to predict the probability of impact with MN4 to be no higher than about 1 in 150 by 2014, even if we're headed for a direct impact! Radar data that we hope to get in 2012 may help, but probably not enough to allow a clear choice." Planetary Society Article

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/apophis_competition/

deb said...

BATTERY-POWERED PLANE
World's First Manned Flight on Dry Cell Batteries

christin m p in massachusetts said...

I got this from the Maui News:

"The long-term goal of the Pan-STARRS (observatory) is to map the stars, galaxies and related objects in the universe. But the immediate purpose of the PS1 is to begin identifying and mapping asteroids and other objects in the solar system that are potential threats to the Earth."

Lets say this new Pan-STARRS observatory on Haleakala tracks a comet that is headed for Earth...

Do we already have the technology to pulverize the comet before it hits? Or are we only going to be forewarned of our impending demise?

Richard Yarnell said...

Probably don't want to pulverize it. Same mass, more targets.

It depends on how long (how many orbits there are) before it hits us.

If it's a long time, apparently just putting a fairly massive satellite in front of it can, over time, by virtue of the tiny gravitational field of the artifical satelite, change the orbit of the comet or astroid enough to cause a miss.

If there isn't that much time, it's thought that a more dramatic change in orbit can be achieved by putting an engine (nuclear, ion, or maybe even chemical, on the object long enough to push it off course.

Lots of variables.

Richard Yarnell said...

But why? Advertising.

We already have high altitude, solar power planes capable of staying in the air almost indefinately.

Above the clouds for the duration so solar works; rechargeable cells during the night. Surveillance; earth observation; cheaper than satellites; radio controlled or computer guided.

John G. said...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/archive/int_spac.html

John G. said...

Famous quotes proven wrong in "time"...

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." (Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943)

"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home." (Ken Olsen, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977)

"The telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." (Western Union internal memo, 1876)

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." (Marshal Ferdinand Foch, French commander of Allied forces during the closing months of World War I, 1918)

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" (David Sarnoff's associates, in response to his urgings for investment in radio in the 1920's)

"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." (New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work, 1921)

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" (Harry M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927)

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." (Charles H. Duell, commissioner, US Office of Patents, 1899)

“Don’t believe anyone who tells you that humans will never have efficient technology for backward and forward time travel.” Nova 2006

deb said...

Great quotes JG. Remind me after Nov. 8 to explore the Nova site
;-)

John G. said...

oh!? That is where you folks have been...
The Gamma ray article is very interesting, Is there a way to harness the energy in Gamma Ray's and use it here on earth? safely?
I'll check back on the 9th. :-)

Richard Yarnell said...

There's a green comet in your future if:

1) It's clear after sunset where you live;

2) If you live someplace really dark or can get to a place that has little if any light pollution;

3) If you know how to find the big dipper (Ursa Major for purists;

4) If you have a small telescope of a pair of pretty good binoculars (mine are 10x80); and

5) If you have a steady hand.

Line up the last two stars in the dipper's handle and draw an imaginary line through the star at the end of the handle for a distance of about 1.5 times that between those two stars. Start looking for the comet as you pan directly toward the horizon (you'll be looking NW). The Comet (Swan) will be about the same distance down as the distance between the last two stars of the dipper's handle. It will appear very green because of CN and C2.

If you don't find it, here's a photo:

http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2006/13oct06/sandnes.jpg

John G. said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
John G. said...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/10/09/mexico.
yahoo.reut/index.html

deb said...

JG, Thanks for sharing. I looked it up and they are still taking contributions. Want to contribute to the time/space capsule?

Yahoo Time Capsule

The capsule will be beamed into space on Oct. 25. But, the same material will be buried (Calif. I think) in Nov.

deb said...

I found this site interesting. It shows what sites people are frequenting on the net. With a little digging I found all sorts of data. The site has much more than it appears at first glance.

Alexa

christin m p in massachusetts said...

This is for the Stephen Hawking fans who might have missed this news.

John G. said...

String Theory?...
Nuclear test on fault line, "Ring Of Fire", days later,
Odd Earthquake in Hawaii...

Richard Yarnell said...

a: the yield of that test was probably under half a kilo-ton dynamite equivalent;

b: to my knowledge, there are no active volcanoes on the Korean pennisula, north or south;

c: I googled earthquakes on the pennisula and came up dry;

d: Hawaii is not part of the ring of fire but is in the middle of the pacific plate. I haven't heard any reports of significant earthquakes on the rim since the SMALL test.

String theory or not, the likelihood is coincidence.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

Hawaii has earthquakes all the time. They are normally just in the 3 and 4 range. The last big one in the 6.5 range was in 1983, 23 years ago. Geologically speaking that is often.

Our quakes are not plate boundary, Ring of Fire quakes but volcanic activity quakes from growing and shifting mountains sitting on top of a hot spot of upwelling magma from deep in the earth. As the magma underneath us ebbs and flows so can the volcanic mountains above.

Richard Yarnell said...

In fact, I remember seeing a film MANY years ago in which it was explained that the Islands pretty much all come from the same spot. As the Pacific plate drifted(s) over it (to the north?) new islands have been formed from the same magma source.

Anonymous said...

http://survive2012.com/

Judy B. said...

OK Jonh G...
I went to the survive 2012 website and got lost for hours....

Many of the books and authors listed there bring back fond memories... but there is much new and interesting ideas....

I would say that LBT will obviously be switched on in 2012

Anonymous said...

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/
b0b13ddbf6fed010vgnvcm1000004eecbcc
drcrd.html

deb said...

Invisibility cloak, amazing stuff!!

I am always finding new sites. I have been to the NASA site numerous times over the years and just recently stumbled upon this one: Earth Observatory

dan said...

Interesting site Debbie. I bookmarked it for future reference.

John G. said...

"However, once again, I refer you to future hisstory that's already been reported: V ger will transform itself - you and I won't be around the see the result, but it will happen."

"I'm sure you've seen it. Captain Kirk and crew are almost defeated by V ger until Kirk gives V ger a contradictory command that causes the old computer to crash."

"It will not really happen like that!? will it?"

"yup"

I'm a slow learner Richard...
Another Good one! You have an awesome imagination...

John G. said...

"Speed of light"

www.madmuseum.org

Evolution of LBT

Richard Yarnell said...

Tehy're going to repair Hubble after all. 2008!

Don't let them fool you with that $900 Million number. A good part of it already has been spent building the new gadgets. If they'd abandoned the telescope without fixing it, they'd have been stuck with, if memory serves, one the order of $450 Million dollars of useless gadgets.

For once, science prevails.

John G. said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
John G. said...

http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/southeast
_asia/mariana/basic_geology.html

John G. said...

ATLANTIS?

Richard Yarnell said...

Atlantis?

Don't understand the connection.

John G. said...

Most do not. Including myself, yet I had to ask. There are many similarities in the legend of Atlantis and this particular Island chain. I lived there years ago and remember some of the history & customs. Yesterday we came across this map.
Will we ever explore the depths of the Marianas trench?
Just thought the question might interest some.
Btw, the current in the trench is very powerful. Is there any cost effective way to convert that to energy? at least on the islands.

deb said...

A close friend of mine was stationed with her hubby in Guam. They are world travelers and her home is of museum quality. She has sand that is shaped like little stars (she might have gotten that from Guam).

She (like me) is fascinated with pre-history and told me of the "latte stones" on the islands. The Chamorro were another civilization who carved and erected huge pieces of stone.

Guam Starcave

deb said...

BTW, those trenches might be a great place to capture ocean current as energy.

John G. said...

GREAT SITE!
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you...
brings back memories of my youth. One could get lost for hours on this site. Imagine starting your childhood on this island chain, it would be easy to understand my interest in LBT. Don't laugh, but if they find a 1970's issue military MP flashlight in this cave, it is mine. I Remember crystal clear the day I lost it. They have known about these caves since the 70's. I wonder why they just opened them to the public in 1999. We used to get in so much trouble exploring these caves. There is one in particular which has a blue fresh water lake at the bottom of it's interior, Awesome.
Deb, I could go on for hours about this place, one day I will show you my childhood pics of these caves, and latte park, and...
I have a couple of miniture latte stones my mom gave me in the curio cabinet, it has led to countless conversations with friends. Right now I am looking at a painting of two lover's point painted with my grass cutting money by some artist named Keen. He painted it pretty quickly. I look at more recent photos of the point and it is obvious much has developed along the shore line since I was there.
Grass cutting money? I remember waiting on those base inspectors to come around and leave notes on soldiers doors to cut their grass or pay a penalty. We would give them time to get home and read the notice before knocking on the door with our push mower, "would you like your grass cut?" They never said no. We got two bucks for the front yard and three for the back, And went through some blades, man... the yards over there were grass and rock. I always had money though, started my first savings account when I was 6, bought my own stuff, even loaned my older siblings money, with interest of course.
My fifth grade class took part in a time capsule which was due to be opened in twenty five years, if someone remembered to tell them about it. Our teacher bet we would forget in two. I did not forget.
I called there about ten years ago trying to see if it had ever been opened, no one had a clue what I was talking about, oh well someone will find it someday. Any hints on how to go about finding out?
Our teacher reminded me of Amelia Earhart(She had knowledge beyond the norm of Amelia)...she loved Star Trek. She was married to a professor from Saipan and believed Amelia would not have disappeared from navigation problems because of the clarity of the stars in this part of the world, something Amelia understood very well. If we find the time capsule you could meet her too, she led the effort...
She also believed the world would one day know exactly what happened to A.E. Maybe she was her? Maybe she put it in the capsule...
uh oh I am starting to wander again. Have a great day and thank you for the link...

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Mercury’s rare trip across face of sun to be webcast

deb said...

Thanks Christin. Christopher did you buy the special glass and take a peek?

New islands are forming in the Pacific: Stone sea and volcano

I didn't see his permalink, so you might have to search backward.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

No I missed Mercury crossing the sun. I didn't know about it and I do have a thing to look through from when we had a solar eclipse that was blocked out totally by clouds.

The volcano in the sea was cool. I wish he had written about where and when it was.

A new Hawaiian island is also forming called Loihi and should reach the surface in 20,000 years.

deb said...

Article about the new islands:

Reports: Island rises near Tonga islands

Richard Yarnell said...

Mercury is so small in comparison to the sun, that just looking at it without a telescope isn't enough (always, of course with adequate eye protection.)

The spaceweather.com site has some pictures and an animation that speeds the transit from 5 hours to something like 10 seconds - no goggles required.

John G. said...

Speaking of telescopes...LBT?
Large Binocular Telescope

latest issue discover magazine

"From Here to Eternity

Get ready for a new generation of telescopes that can see forever"

Richard Yarnell said...

For those who missed the transit of the sun by mercury, NASA's Space Weather site has a short film
that uses images from Japan's brand new X-ray telescope. When you
watch the film, concentrate on the surface of the sun, not Mercury.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/images/xraytransit/xrt500.gif

It's about a meg. For those with fast connections there's a 20Meg version.

The article, with still pictures, is at
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/17nov_xraytransit.htm?list171357


ry
---
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to
get better. It's not."

-Theodor Seuss Geisel, author and illustrator

deb said...

I care an awful lot Richard, it will get better. It really is true that everything we really need to know is learned in kindergarten. Thanks for the quote.

On a different note:

Mysterious Dark Energy Has Existed For Most of Time, Scientists Say

deb said...

This article is about global warming, but it is interesting on several levels so I thought it worth posting:

Scientists: Climate Change Clues in Sky

deb said...

Very interesting:

Meteorite's Organic Matter Older Than the Sun, Study Says

deb said...

Wow!!! Some days it pays to sign on. I just popped in for lunch and decided to read a bit as I have had my hands full working at the house and am way behind on what's happening in the world. I suppose y'all know by now that I am fascinated by ancient artifacts...I hit the jackpot today while browsing. Several authors posted articles about the same find, and I will give links to several as each offers different observations and pictures:

In search of lost time

Ancient Moon 'computer' revisited

Enigma of ancient world's computer is cracked at last

Antikythera Mechanism secrets unlocked

Experts: Fragments an Ancient Computer

Mysteries of computer from 65BC are solved

Ancient gearwheels predict ballet of sun, moon

Richard Yarnell said...

I've tried three times to post something like this:

"Cracked" seems a little generous.

The machine has been known since the '70's. The recent work employed some pretty fancy imaging machines that, without destroying the object, seems to have given the scientists a better idea of what it can do. Those new images also gave them direct evidence of what it was about since they could decipher etching on the gears and wheels.

What's most fascinating to me is that the technology apparently was so closely protected that it disappeared for at least a thousand years. It wasn't until the Persians came up with their own mechanized calendars (evidently much simpler) that anything like it was seen. And then it was another 4-600 years before the Europeans came up with gears that enabled them to make machines of their own.

deb said...

Maybe it was how the Greek rulers convinced people that they were "gods"...I mean after all they could predict eclipses ;-)

Richard Yarnell said...

It's been done before.

John G. said...

This computer makes air and space travel by the ancients a little more likely...wonder what other surprises the ancients left us which are as yet to be discovered...
Have we ever and do we possess the technology to look beneath the ice in antartica? Just to see "what" life would have been like eons ago when this continent was warmer...
Could the same technology used to peer inside this clock be used to read the bottom of the pyramid stones?

deb said...

Hey JG, Wikipedia has a pic of Anarctica disrobed of ice: pic and the encyclopedia also tells the time frame and what lived when on the land that is now Anarctica.
Geology

Seems that the continent floated down there about 25 million years ago. Dinosaurs and marsupials lived on the continent, but 15 million years ago it became covered in ice, so not much lives there. (I greatly admire those very cold daddy emperor penguins that tough out the winter.)

May I ask what could possibly be written on the bottom of the pyramids? Did you read something or perhaps it's a premonition of some kind. Just curious really. I wouldn't believe that any technology could peer through rock and see writing on the other side, plus the rocks that form a pyramid are just on the outer surface with chambers below ground level in the interior.

deb said...

I discovered an interesting phenomenon while playing with 'google earth', if you go to either the north or south pole and keep clicking on it (maybe a dozen or so times) it zooms in differently at the poles than anywhere else and as you keep clicking there become "streams" of dots that radiate out directly from the center. I'm not sure whether it is the magnetic pole or "true" pole, but I'm guessing magnetic. BTW, there is no way to miss the poles...the ocean floor in the arctic surrounds it and the snow in the antarctic encircles the pole.

John G. said...

Parts of the pyramids are pretty thick and the only caverns are the passageways and rooms they lead to which is somewhat narrow at points. The passages are rich with writings and drawings. Many of the stones used to build the structures are cut with unmatched precision. If they are going to build mammoth structures using unique and somewhat mysterious methods, litter the passages with drawings, fill the rooms with treasures as well as make all the building blocks precise, it would stand to reason they would not let any part of these structures go to waste. Using the Greek clock as a guide (if it is indeed Greek) society back then was into detail, everything was used for a purpose or it was not there. There are inscriptions on the bottoms of the "rocks"
Speaking of curiosity...
Bigfoot, loch ness?
We can't prove they exist; yet the phenomenon is there. Do they exist?
There is a fresh water "underground"
System of dry and wet caves and passages which connect continents...
Could Bigfoot and loch ness be using these? Could Native Americans or mankind for that matter have used these as a means of transit between continents as opposed to the Aleutian land bridge? Are these passageways lost to modern society?

deb said...

Oh My, JG, sorry, but, as always, I have to see some hard evidence for something before I can buy into it.

I think that we are at a point in history where we have so much assimilating to do with the knowledge that we already have that we aren't looking closely enough at some of the things that we can't explain and could be basing "fact" on previous theories that don't add up.

I see this especially in the medical field and even more selectively in mental health. When penicillin was developed thousands were released from mental hospitals cured of schizophrenia, but the medical field in general just isn't "getting it". Diseases of the Mind. So I continue to search the periphery of science because I am driven by some inner desire to know what is real, but do need that evidence.

Anyway, there is plenty of fascinating stuff that we are finding to keep me busy: Anion in the Interstellar Garden

John G. said...

yeah I know...sigh.
I was watching nova or natl. geo. the other day and there was an interesting piece on lochness and bigfoot. It was interesting looking at the patterns of sightings. Lochness in europe and upstate New york, Bigfoot in the pnw and mountains of siberia (I for one have never seen nor heard of either in GA.) The earths crust is a giant honeycomb, anyway it is either the 100 monkey thing or caveman was brighter than we all thought...
Later that day there was an article of a scientist floating around the world and he stops every so often and takes water samples from different depths, he has alrady identified several hundred life forms we did not know exist. What is the chance no one has ever seen those life forms before? The greeks left a clock laying out for 2000 years before someone picked it up.
Someone first has to take a serious look and start to ask questions.
considering the activity has dropped off somewhat on this blog and UHC is so far off everybodies to do list, I figured I'd ask.
thanx again


if you ever look for bigfoot...look in the trees.

Richard Yarnell said...

I've been tramping around Oregon forests for years and have not seen a single big foot print or a tuft of anything but indentifiable animal hair.

There are supposed to be a couple of still at large bank robbers hiding out in the NW woods. Haven't seen them either.

On a serious note: the smaller the animal and the more remote its location makes it more likely that we'll discover them as we design the tools - witness the pristine lake buried under a mile or more of ice in the Antarctic. The bigger the animal ("Big Foot" or Nessy) the harder it is for them to hide.

As for that clockwork piece, it wasn't just lying around: it was a few more than 6 fathoms deep!

John G. said...

"witness the pristine lake buried under a mile or more of ice in the Antarctic."

never heard of that? do you have a link?

Thanx for the input Richard. You said exactly what I expected you would say, only this time I would have to agree with you. it's the 100 monkey thing...

speaking of curiosity again, It would appear that we have discovered more dino bones from 65 million years ago than we have "human" type skeleton bones from the past 100,000 years when our species has gained the most numbers, why is that?

John G. said...

http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/060517_inside_earth.html

"It's the first evidence from direct imaging to support the idea that ancient seafloor makes its way down to the bottom of the mantle,"

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn9268-giant-crater-may-lie-under-antarctic-ice.html

two cool links from two cool sites, which may or may not be relevant, I hope they post

Richard Yarnell said...

Speculating:

It takes special circumstances to turn bone into fossil. Human treatment of the dead, even in "primitive" times, precludes many of those opportunities.
On the other hand, human preservation of the dead means that we have some intact specimens - more certainly than of the dinosaurs.

Then, keep in mind how big some of the dinosaurs were. But also realize that a majority of the bones found are fragments that are either put together like puzzles or from which are inferred the size and shape of the original bone.

One other speculation: consider the numbers of individuals that must have roamed around when Dinosaurs were dominant. The fraction of those that turned into fossils that we have actually found is vanishinly small. You may be surprised to learn that most of the skeletons you see displayed in museums are castings or reconstructions. Share the wealth, as it were.

deb said...

Very interesting article about the earth's crust folded and slipping into the mantle, plenty of artifacts from about 50 million years ago are lost forever.

Dinosaurs lived for 160 million years and at times were at least as plentiful as people are today, yet still, our collection of fossils is small, so to speak. Unless the organism falls into a mudpit it's unlikely that that it ever leaves anything behind but dust.

Atlantis: The only brief reference we have is from Plato. But it makes for a good story. I noticed that when I was in Scotland a story tells of an island to the west where people go when they die. Life is timeless there and perfect. Believing in a better place just past the horizon would be something people would invent out of our ability to hope.

On the other hand, I am completely open to the possibility that technologically advanced cultures may have existed in the past and the "clock" makes me very curious as to what else it's manufacturers could do.

John G. said...

Forces of Nature

John G. said...

TOTALLY COOOL...

John G. said...

insects levitate

John G. said...

TOTALLY!

Thanx deb, it was the last part I was having trouble with, I am a slow learner, got it now!
I was looking for info on ants and some insects and their abilities to lift objects many times there body weight. I did so with the thought the ancients perhaps knew of the chemicals derived from these insects to make their workers stronger in order to lift heavier objects...I did not find anything (yet) but did run across the previous link and thought you might find it interesting...
Richard is probably spot on as usual in that they were lifted with simple ingenuity, yet looking for alternatives no one has thought of yet is still "fun"
I will e you back soon,
thanx again!

John G. said...

Richard,
I have heard you get more gas when you fill your tanks in the morning or evening when it is cool or cold and that ice cubes freeze faster and clearer when using hot water. I also know some metals expand and contract based on temps.
If this is true, is it also possible that engines run more efficiently when the outside temp is cooler and heavy objects (rocks) do not weigh as much?

deb said...

WOW, I didn't know that we'd been levitating stuff since 87...but, in 87 I had 2 kids, a full time job, and a house to run...I missed a lot for about 12 years. I agree that the floating bugs makes me more curious about Ledskalnin (sp?) and Coral Castle.

Richard Yarnell said...

I have heard you get more gas when you fill your tanks in the morning or evening when it is cool or cold

In terms of volume, you get a gallon either time, no matter what the temperature is. However, gasoline does expand when it's warm, so by weight, you probably get a little more when it's cool - how much? Look up the expansion coefficient.


and that ice cubes freeze faster and clearer when using hot water.

I think that one's false: the freezer has to carry off all the extra heat. However, once you get the temp down to tap temperature, it's no slower. The cubes should be clearer because air that was disolved in the water was driven out by the heat.

I also know some metals expand and contract based on temps.
If this is true, is it also possible that engines run more efficiently when the outside temp is cooler

Fuel use is more efficient when the engine is warm. Since high temps are inevitable in combustion engines, they are designed to operate warm. We no longer have to adjust carbeurators because we have computers to do it, but in the old days, the manual choke gradually reduced the ratio of gas to air as the engine warmed up.

and heavy objects (rocks) do not weigh as much?

Nope, the rock and metal will weigh the same even if it is slightly, very slightly less dense.

Richard Yarnell said...

I'll bet they try to fly away! Where is the Cruelty to Insects lobby when you need them.

That experiment smacks of putting the cat in the microwave.

I'd like to see what the power required was. It could be expressed decibels. I'll bet it hurt - a lot.

John G. said...

Discover magazine latest issue;
Insects do not possess a level of conscious which allows them to sense pain(same as live lobsters in boiling water). If sound waves are that harmful, it is doubtful the ancients would have employed them to build the pyramids. If sound waves are that harmful based on decibals;perhaps a case could be made against those cars booming at the intersections...

Richard Yarnell said...

A case can be made: the incidence of deafness is rising quickly.

I went to school at NYU's School of the Arts in the early '70's just as very highly amplified bands began to play in closed rooms and about the time Walkman was introduced. Audiences didn't get it, nor did some of the musicians and DJ's. The smart ones used ear plugs. The rest are deaf as posts.

Your assumption about insects and pain bears examination. Every insect I've ever tortured with a match or a magnifying glass tried to escape the immediate source of danger.

The question still hangs: why?

And who says the ancients levitated blocks of stone using sound? Call me set in my ways, but I'm not going to engage discussion of patently absurd notions. We have a pretty clear idea (albeit with some details missing) of the arc of technology. I'm fairly certain that levitating even a ton of stone is beyond our ability. But again, why do it? Far more efficient to fire up a crane and lift it directly. Probably more efficient to grab a chain gang, provide them with some wedges and pry bars, and have them move it around with just muscle, the way the Egyptions almost certainly did.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Richard,
That was just sarcasm -- about the insect "experiments", right?

Richard Yarnell said...

I had the same childhood as any other curious farm kid.

The phase didn't last long, but I do remember an episode with a magnifying glass and a hill of nasty red ants in the garden that got into my clothing.

I'm a gentle person now, though.

christin m p in massachusetts said...

Richard,
You do come across as being a gentle person.

Some adults do still treat bugs and creatures crossing the road as if they don't have any feelings. Like, some people will think nothing of swatting a bug and just leaving it there maimed and squirming to suffer. I understand about swatting an insect, but I don't understand why people don't make sure the poor thing is completely out as fast as possible, so it doesn't have to suffer a long agonizing death.

Also, I know that at least some people will stop their cars if a small woodland creature is crossing the road. The ones that are hardest to spot are frogs, because they especially like to jump around on wet backroads at night during or after rainstorms. It's particularly hard to see what's on the road surface at night when it's wet -- especially on back roads, since they don't have streetlights in most sections. On dark rainy nights, I drive much slower and try to do a frog watch, but sometimes they jump out in front of the car suddenly and you don't see them until you're practically on top of them.

But some people don't even slow down when an easily visible creature is in the road, though -- like a squirrel, or a bird, or an opossum.

And now I'm thinking of the meats and poultry I eat, and I wonder if those creatures were kept in those little pens that are so confining that they can't even turn around in them. And I wonder if it's even possible for the beef, chicken, or pork processing companies to find a humane way to (I can't use the "SL" word -- even in figurative speech).

Now I've got myself picturing a guillotine and I know I'm never going to eat meat or poultry again. I don't have to cut out sea food, because I never eat it anyway.

Life is just too cruel.

John G. said...

I was only trying to express my curiosity in whether or not the ancients had discovered a way to increase the strength of their workers using the same principles as some insects lifting several times their body weight;which would give your theory of superstructure construction credence. It is the missing links in the technology curve (and have yet to be explained) that give rise to the lunacy in alternative theories.
On a positive note, I would give a lifetime of earnings for a tenth of your knowledge of the facts.

Here is a site which may be of interest. It goes online in Jan 2007 and promises to change the way we view some common mistakes we now make in regards to evolution as well as physics. enjoy.

LBT

Richard Yarnell said...

That promises to be a fun site to keep track of. Thanks.

John G. said...

stardust

see if we can find what they missed?

Also this same discover issue reports of an observatory recently discovered in peru which is believed to have been built in 2200 bc.(800 years before it was previously believed to have been possible to this civilization) it was at the base of a peruvian pyramid. They believed it was used as sort of a farmer's almanac.
Makes me ponder whether certain sides of the giza pyramids were built in the same manner (certain times of the year,when sun and starlight enabled them to achieve such precise measurements based on the fact that these lightbeams would only duplicate certain times of the year) and for the same reasons, tracking patterns of the sun and stars... hence growing seasons.
Not to be argumentative, it is just hard for me to believe pyramids are nothing more than giant coffins for the royals.

Richard Yarnell said...

"nothing more than giant coffins"

Coffins for a god are nothing to be sneezed at. Remember that Egyptian Kings were gods. The religion, like many, was based on the sun.

Whether agriculture or religion drove siting the Pyramids, Stonehenge, or any other building, tomb or not, it's not surprising that they would line up with seasonal events that would be important every year to the health and welfare of the people.

To me, it's no great mystery that the alignments would be fairly precise. No fancy instruments needed. A calendar of some kind would be needed. Other than that, it's a matter of careful observation, not calculation.

John G. said...

NOVA recently had a program about the huge earthly carvings found in South America in the 20th century, and the fact that they were found from the air. After much research they also discovered a small instrument similar to a magnifying glass, which used the sun to illuminate a straight line to make the images over great distances. It was a simple tool, which provided an ingenious outcome. Also the gem in the center of King Tut's medallions was proved to be silica, probably from the recently discovered meteor impact zone in Libya and Egypt.
Could this Impact, still fresh in ancient Egypt’s history, have led to their choice of religion in worshipping the sun gods?
Here is a far reaching question, If this impact was fresh in their history, could the pyramids been built in size and grandeur to insure they survived the next great meteor impact if it came?

Richard Yarnell said...

JG

What was the name of that NOVA episode?

John G. said...

I aploogize Richard I do not remember clearly, however I believe it was a nova special on either discover channel or national geographic. I also believe it was the Atlantis special and they were making reference around the world to things which were reported to be leftover evidence of Atlantian culture. This one in particular was in reference to the carved rocks which had turned up in Peru...I think...which Deb has provided links to in the past. Some speculate what was seen from the air were not only landing strips for space craft but also birds and such.
Not far from this locale scientists had excavated (or were in the early stages) an ancient village complete with pottery and tools of the time, including the "magnifying glass". Those with untethered imagination (myself) speculate it was ancient advanced technology, scientists doing the research explained ancient culture and religion as the most probable reasons, based on findings at the dig.
It was rather interesting because of the video of these carved rocks, there were so many of them. In caves, In the ocean, On the beach, and the precision in which they were cut, not to mention the sheer numbers of them. They can explain most everything except the technology in how they were made and in such numbers, literally millions of them. of all sizes.
The magnifying glass was a simple tool and it reminded me of the greek clock because of it's ingenuity.

Also, in reference to the pyramids, I have heard at one time the pyramids had a capstone made of gold?
What is the liklehood the capstone was the silica glass.

John G. said...

If you could assist me and name the site in Peru? where these huge landing strips and drawings are located...I had googled it at one time. My new computer does not have my links and favorites from that time. I will keep looking and post the link when I find it...

John G. said...

pyramids

STONEHENGE

death of the sun


These may be of interest. I am still looking for the ATLANTIS special...

deb said...

I woke up early this morning and got a chance to catch up on the blog, but have run out of time. The lines of Peru are the Nazca lines...a search will show pages of links.

John G. said...

Thank you Deb. How do you retain so much info?
I have looked and will continue looking; so far it looks as if it could have been a travel channel or PBS special. I have found reference to the program at both, yet I have yet to find reference to the magnifying glass instruments the program made reference too. It did however make reference to the village which is being excavated close by.
In reviewing some of these sights and references made by Richard, something, which interests me about the ancients, is their cultural and religious evidence of their fascination with the universe and the "sun" god.
They were obviously aware of growing seasons based on lunar and planetary alignments as well as location of the sun, and their advanced mapping skills.. A belief system where they thought the gods were up there looking down on them would explain a lot of massive construction projects, pyramids and nazca lines included. Heck they may have even seen the cydonia complex on mars from earth and believed due to lack of satellites it was intelligent life and many of their projects were an attempt to communicate with what they thought was intelligent life on another planet. Anyway what I find interesting considering their worshipping the sun god was their lack of photography skills. Even in the universe modern day scientists are using the Hubble and LBT to look back in time at the history of the universe based on light and the effect of the universe on it.
Many magicians and Native Americans use tricks of light to their advantage. Light beams are the rascals which make us believe we seen something out the corner of our eye, yet it happens so fast and out of our line of sight, there is usually a big difference to what we saw and what we thought we saw, sometimes it could be something as simple as someone closing a car door and the sun reflects off the chrome on the trim, unless they open or close the door again, you will not see what you thought you saw repeat itself. I remember posting one time about mother natures photography, put a piece of furniture in front of a wall across from a window, come back in twenty years and move the furniture and there will be a distinctive impression of the furniture based on dust and fading where the furniture was sitting. This happens everywhere the sun is present and matter blocks it's path, inside or out. I find it interesting the ancients did not use this to their advantage and develop some form of photography skills...or did they? And we are not looking in the right place or from the right angles. Oh well, maybe someone at Giza will close a car door and we will be clued in. End of mystery.
Happy Holidays all travel safely.
Your Friend JG.

deb said...

"A belief system where they thought the gods were up there looking down on them would explain a lot of massive construction projects, pyramids and nazca lines included."

Never thought of that one...but it totally makes sense. I'm a firm believer that the simplest answer is usually "the" answer.

I visited 7 different stone circles in England and Scotland. As I sat amongst them I would try to think of why and how they came to be. There are volumes written as to their purpose and origin, but what I noticed is that they sat upon fairly high but flat hills and were easily recognizable from the distant hills. My theory...they were the summer gathering grounds. tribes were bound to get together in the summer to trade, farm and find mates before spreading out to their winter hunting grounds. Each tribe would have been represented by a stone, which would have been placed compass fashion to indicate the direction that the tribe considered "home". I say this because there is no consistancy of how many stones make up a circle, and in some instances where certain stones are equadistant there have been others added(?) that are midway between 2 of the equadistant stones. I think that they were roofed with thatch and made for a large, dry gathering hall probably used for drying produce that was divided up for winter.

How and why the stones were moved up to 200 miles still remains a mystery to me. In some places there was stone available much closer.

John G. said...

CHECK THIS OUT and then we'll discuss the galactical line of sight theory

www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=179854 Mayan prophecies

Anonymous said...

deb said:

The link says "page cannot be found" I tried searching the History channel for Mayan prophecies, but didn't find it that way either.

John G. said...

I apologize. Try the blue thingy...
Mayan Prophecies

John G. said...

More on LBT

Happy New Year Friends at crusts.

Thank You for the conversation and Education in 2006.
You are by far the Best People in the Universe.

God Bless and God's Speed in 2007

John G. said...

beta test post...

John G. said...

Life on Mars and NASA killed it?

Are scientists checking to see if global warming is happening on Mars also? It could help settle some debates if they were...
Also if the planetary body which struck Earth billions of years ago and formed our moon, if it were ice filling our oceans and parts of it struck mars it would help explain signs of that planets great floods...

John G. said...

Google builds “Since the Beginning” people’s telescope…LBT on the move?

Richard Yarnell said...

On the same Nova (Mayan development by satelite) they featured Clarke's "space elevator" idea and the serious work that's being done to make it happen.

Back when, I recall being fascinated by the idea of dropping a cable of some kind from geo-stationary orbit all the way to the ground (the plan now is to put our end on a raft in the Pacific). Then, it was a loop of cable that would be balanced so that the power to move it would be relatively small. Now the idea is to have a gondola climb a ribbon of carbon nano tubes.

Here's where we get to the best geewhiz moment of the feature:

While nano tubes are terrifically strong and flexible, they are short - milimeters at best. So they described a technique for making the nanotubes and then drawing them out of the chamber, much like you can draw wool off of a distaff. It was magic - there was this almost invisible, flat ribbon of gossamer. The tubes don't like to let go and so as the first is drawn away, a second attaches itself to the first, etc. It appears that they may very well be able to manufacture a sizeable ribbon of very light and tremendously strong carbon fiber.

Whee, a 23,000 mile elevator ride!

John G. said...

Great Program.
Why did "all" the ancient cultures use limestone?
How did they build them?
How did they survey and plumb lines?
If the Mayans were already here, why is Christopher Columbus credited with discovering America?

I am starting to see a connection between the Stonehenge, pyramids and Mayan calendar.
Our earth and Sun follow a 26 thousand year orbit path, sometimes our orbit around the Sun is more round and warmer other times it is more oval and colder.
Somehow the ancients knew this and used some of these structures as sort of an almanac or calendar (which will end and restart it's next cycle in 2012).
The sun will be in a generally different position on 1/10/2007 as it is on 1/10/2006, by that I mean it's shadows will follow a different path based on position of Sun and Earth. This can be tested and proven at Stonehenge as well as the pyramids and many places within the Mayan empire. I have a photo on the blog I have been playing with, I have been trying to upload it so it appears like Christopher’s cat, anyway if I wanted to repeat that photo I would have to wait 26,000 years and even then someone would have come along and cut a tree...

The speed in which Nano tech is emerging and will emerge leads me to believe the space elevator will most likely evolve into transmitters and replicators and the vehicle will most likely be lasers for all non living products we wish to beam into space which is a good thing because all we would need the Space elevator for would be people, end result it would not have to be as strong or grand if we limit the number of passengers each trip... I would also test the behavior of Nano tubes at every point from ocean to space station before investing in the platform on the pacific, after all the entire system would only be as strong as it's weakest link and we humans have a record of introducing elements into our environment which do not always react as we would expect. The Mayan empire is a great example of this. Thanx again for the heads up, It was a great educational program, My five year old does not want to ride an airplane anymore, she wants her very own space elevator...gee thanx.
Your friend J.G.

dan said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
dan said...

I found all the segments fascinating. If you missed it, here's a link to the whole Nova Program.

Richard Yarnell said...

Space Weather News for Jan. 10, 2007
http://spaceweather.com

Comet McNaught has continued to brighten as it approaches the sun and it is now the brightest comet in 30 years. For observers in the northern Hemisphere, tonight is probably the best time to see it: Go outside this evening and face the sunset. A clear view of the western horizon is essential, because the comet hangs very low. As the twilight fades to black, it should become visible to the naked eye. Observers say it's a fantastic sight through binoculars.

In the days ahead, Comet McNaught will pass the sun and emerge in good position for southern hemisphere viewing later this month. Meanwhile, solar heating will continue to puff up the comet, causing it to brighten even more. It could become one of the brightest comets in centuries, visible even in daylit skies.

Visit http://spaceweather.com for photos and updates.

John G. said...

Latest issue of DISCOVER;
Researchers are speculating Stonehenge was a hospital...
interesting article, it still does not explain how a bunch of sick people moved stones 160 plus miles and then built it...
Thanx for the meteor tip, I'm going there now...

John G. said...

Awesome Comet. It's amazing how much newfound interest our neighborhood has in space today.

Thinking about the NOVA program you referred us to Richard...Could we not use the same technology to find the road or trench, which was used to relocate the Giza blocks 600 miles? It is most likely they dragged or walked these stones based on the pressure required to drill the holes in some of the stones as well as the near perfect measurements of some...
I would assume this road is now buried and due to lack of vegetation, hidden, what can we do to employ this technology to find the path this culture used to transport these stones great distances?

Richard Yarnell said...

There are several technologies available and I don't know the limitations of each.

The Jungle observations used to locate the Mayan developments were in the visual spectrum and relied on shadows and color differences in the vegetation.

I understand there have been discoveries made of buried buildings and roads using radar that probes beneath the surface. I suspect that the structures have to be substantial, not too deep, and persistent. A foot path probably wouldn't be discernable.

Richard Yarnell said...

I'm going to post this here because "SETI at Home" is already well known and is the easiest to search for on the net.

After a hiatus, I'm back to running SETI and other distributed computing projects (a climate simulation from Oxford University, a protein folding project (it originally started as a cancer project and has expanded), a search for the wobble of distant starts that suggests planets, and there are others to choose from.

BOINC is the common platform and is a very compact program considering what it can do. It's very well behaved, running only when you want it to and when you're not using your computer.

Here's how it works: you d/l the program from Cal Berkeley. It installs quickly and occupies about 4 megs. After you tell it how and when it can connect to the net, you choose the project or projects you wish to help out. Depending on your equipment, the program d/l's the raw data and your computer begins to crunch the numbers according to instructions given by the researchers. When the work units have been completed (time varies with the speed and memory you have on your computer and the complexity of the project) either the program will open a connection to BOINC or will notify you and ask that you open that link. It uploads your work result, logs your stats, and d/l's another one or more work units.

So far, I've logged about 40K hours worth of computing time on such projects. I don't run the screen saver, although you'll probably want to for awhile, I allow the monitor to go dark, and I leave the computer running 24/7. That's the big deal in my mind. There's all this computing power going to waste much of the time. Most of these projects couldn't or wouldn't be done without the effective networking of otherwise idle machines. My new, reasonably fast machine that's got 2 gigs of RAM and a huge HD whips through work units that used to take me a couple of days. With almost a million machines working on just the SETI project, massive amounts of data are searched and refined.

Remember the Small Pox scare: I switched over then and helped look for proteins needed to formulate a vaccine. In less than a month, collectively we examined hundreds of thousands of candidates and then in less than two weeks, re-examined the several thousand most promising ones. If they'd had a machine, it would have taken years to do what a couple of million volunteers managed to do.

You can claim a charitable deductions since BOINC and the participating agencies are not-for-profits. The programs keep track of CPU time which you can use to calculate how much electricity you use running the program. It should run around $100 a year or a little more.

It's perfectly safe to do; it doesn't get in your way of doing your work; employers should be encouraged to participate; and you really do real, useful, sometimes cruicial work.

John G. said...

"A foot path probably wouldn't be discernable."

Yes, but when the feet are accompanied by ten-ton rocks it would be, correct?
Is there not some element, which could be mixed with the sand and limestone traces to make it light up?

Judy B. said...

Richard...
Allowing your computer to be part of a huge network that does the work of "supercomputers" is very worthwhile... I have thought about doing that too, but believe I am restricted by my slow dial up.
Since you seem to be a country guy, how are you connected to the internet?/

Richard Yarnell said...

A slow modem. I'm nearly at the edge of my ISP's service area and have one too many copper connections to enable a useful DSL connection on their otherwise fiber optic network.

Once you get the BOINC program (it's a modest size) the work units are scaled to the amount of work your computer does (based on its speed and how often it's able to upload results). They are also of modest size.

BOINC has evolved from what I believe was the first publicly oriented distributed computing program. They've learned a lot since 1999 when I first signed up.

But I'm not kidding when I say that some of the work we've done (Small Pox, for one) has been groundbreaking and possibly life saving.

Be assured, you're not networked in the true sense of the word. All you do is run the same program as all the other participating computers. You exchange raw data for the reports you send. They keep track of where the data you crunch fits into all the other data they send around the world. It's safe.

Early on, I had trouble running the first climate model assessment. They had a bug and my computer was marginally big enough to handle the job. Now, though, they're working on a successor program and my machine is 10 times faster and has 30 times as much memory.

You can always remove the program if it doesn't work for you.

deb said...

I'm a bit scared of adding any programs right now. But if all goes well I'd be interested in signing up, maybe in a few months.

Richard Yarnell said...

It is real work that scientists of all stripes are beginning to rely on. The SETI participants form the largest computer in the world. At its height, 3 million machines were involved. Now it's around a million, but they're much faster.

I've found the new interface very well behaved and respectful of your needs. Ditto the various projects.

There is a nice thing about the current crop of ongoing projects, you can choose one thats close to your own interests.

Rest assured, it's not make work.

They're even putting people like you and me to work searching for planets circling other stars. I don't think you get naming rights, but if you find one, you're part of the team.

John G. said...

"I don't think you get naming rights, but if you find one, you're part of the team."

They should just give us the planet if we find it, It is doubtful we will travel there and exploit it, and if we do, think of the benefits to society?

deb said...

Just an FYI:

Ball Lightning Mystery Solved? Electrical Phenomenon Created in Lab

deb said...

Moon Settlers May Be "Ski" Racers, Helium Miners, TV Stars

deb said...

I LOVE Hubble

Hubble Spies Dazzling Death of a Sunlike Star

John G. said...

Discover.com has a contest until mid march 2007.
Create an accurate 2 and a half minute video explaining string theory in a way the average person can understand...

Judge Judy is developing a show called "So you want to be President"
The average American creates a short video explaining why he/she would make a good president and America votes...Lookout mainstream, Here comes Times person(s) of the year...

We need a contest thread...

John G. said...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/bermuda-triangle.htm

deb said...

I saw a Discovery program on the Bermuda triangle some years back. The children of pilots and their planes that disappeared were searching for answers. Natural gas escaping from the ocean floor was the most logical answer.

John G. said...

where would we be without ya?

The problem with the Natural gas theory is it is not supported by scientific bouys in the area.
It does not explain electrical malfunctions, nor radical time fluctuations in craft travel. Also natural gas pockets can be found in many other parts of the ocean floor yet they have little effect on crafts which pass over, including oil drilling rigs which were victims of NG Bursts yet did not completley sink much less quickly without a trace.

The explanation for the Bermuda Triangle is probably more than likely not a predictable or practical one. Considering the lack of wreckage found after a craft disappearance...

It is interesting however the convergence of natural systems relative to the area IE; Oceangraphic conveyor belt,jet stream, water temp fluctuations, Oregon vortex? and the high rate of drug smuggling and pirating associated with the islands...
I read an article recently which stated grace satellites can be expected to prove or disprove many of these theories sometime in the near future.

deb said...

hmmm, I'll tuck that info in the back of my mind, but don't have the time or mental energy to look into it further right now...but thanks.

Picture of Saturn

deb said...

And for those who suspect UFO's have visited our planet:

UFO science key to halting climate change: former Canadian defense minister

dan said...

I hope we have a back-up plan.

John G. said...

I had a unique experience the other day...minutes after arriving home from work we received a phone call about a tornado warning headed towards our neighborhood. Needless to say I was skeptical, Then the phone faded out and the power started pulsating... I had just come in, other than rain this did not have the feel of a bad storm so I grabbed the camera and opened the door to step outside, as I Pushed the door open it was snatched from my hand and sucked out. This was not wind but more like pressure.
As I stepped out onto the front porch and looked up it was coming in from behind that two hundred year old oak tree, all I could see was black sky and that noise...it was like the universe was rushing in while the atmosphere was rushing out, My daughter asked me if one (tornado) was coming? it was already here. where to go what to do?
We live in a hole in the county, the rotating cloud I was looking up in had already took out a few houses and barns on the highway up above our de elevated neighborhood, we were now directly under the vortex. Ever seen the inside of a tornado? I have some awesome pics which I was not able to review until sunday evening, one word, awesome! While they recreate the sight, they can never recreate the sounds, smell and basic "feel" of being under one of these any justice.
As it passed over the house it was like being under a rotating black disc, it would speed up, a hole would open and a little sun would pass through and than it would slow down and it would go dark again, so dark you could not see your hand in front of your face. The pressure, temperature and noise fluctuations were indescribable. As it passed over the lake the whole system paused and seemed to "feed" off from the lake before exploding into something of a beast and moving on, as it passed through the woods snapping everything in it's path following the creek bed it seemed to pick up steam before pausing over the power transmission lines about two hundred yards in and pausing again, then it got really wicked. That sound of vibrating electricity and light show as it seemed to make a connection and the glow from within the cloud as it steadily fed off the transmission lines and grew in strength...The hole opened up and a sliver of sun came through as it took off through the woods, moments later 50 or more homes were leveled or heavily damaged. Man we were lucky! It's over!...
Not so fast... Here comes another one...
Why does the power company not kill the power when a tornado warning is issued? I know what I saw, from inside and under the eyewall, The next two or three which passed over that evening found my home with no power to it. The next day and daylight showed unimaginable destruction all up and down the road, usually following a path of running water or electricity.
I went back and looked at old footage from tornado chasers, these things are attracted to any form of electricity. Like a magnet.
Why does the power company not kill the power when a tornado warning is issued?

deb said...

Wow, JG. Can you post any of the pics on the net? Hope all lives were spared in your neighborhood.

What awesome and terrifying power. Glad you and yours are OK.

Christopher C. in Hawaii said...

Yes please show us some pictures!

John G. said...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johngingeorgia/

Dern Dial Up...
sigh...

Richard Yarnell said...

JG

A Tornado is a mystery to me - never been near one, don't want to be.

So for us folks used to mild mannered weather, could you tell us what some of the less obvious photos show?

Is there one of them that looks up the pipe to the clear sky in the middle of the funnel?

Glad you survived.

John G. said...

It has been an exhausting week.

I was kind of hoping you could tell me.
I do not know what that was that came over; it was not like you see in the movies as one would expect. I would think a well defined funnel cruising through the front yard is what to expect...
It was not like that at all, more of an ominous "black!" cloud. It sort of moved like one of those Independence Day movie ships. As it rolled in and blacked out every nook and cranny the atmosphere started changing, it would not settle on one temperature or humidity or "feel"... hot, cold, humid, dry, etc. no wind or noise initially. Once it had secured a position and blackened everything from horizon to horizon the wind started picking up, literally, up! Some of the photos show grass and water droplets sort of spinning up and pulling away could be a reflection of the flash, but that would not explain the way it looked when I was not taking pictures.
It seemed to pause over the lake for two to three minutes before A distant steady rumble started to vibrate everything, sounded like the echo of a lightning strike that had no end, it grew louder and louder until a hole opened up and there was light and what I call the wall of wind, that did not blow, it just distorted everything, The sky seemed to be a flat rotating ceiling clearly defined yet chaotic all at the same time, almost like thick black smoke.
Then it would almost race parallel to the creek bed before settling over the power transmission lines and a whole new wicked glow started just beyond the tree line, it almost seemed to be feeding off the power lines for what seemed like an eternity before becoming extremely loud, windy, solid black and heading north covering miles in minutes, the results of which are now undeniable. The next day as I drove up the road and witnessed the damage trail which covered in some cases miles, it would have put no less than two possibly three "storms" directly over my home. I cried when I realized how lucky we all were, at the time (or even now) I had no clue exactly what that was, just what it did.

Someone needs to research power transmission lines and tornado weather and how they interact.
I suspect understanding how they behave together will not only save lives, but prevent that level of destruction elsewhere.
The majority of the 200 or so damaged homes in my area were struck within a mile of the "storm" crossing that line with the power transmission lines.
99.9 percent of damaged homes in my area were damaged north of that line.
I live 200 yards south in a hole on the edge of a creek and a lake respectively

Fusion power?
Someone should have shut off those lines when a warning was issued...

If a tornado warning is ever issued for your area, cut out everything which gives off energy but the Doppler radar and stand still...

John G. said...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/tornado.htm

John G. said...

one more and I will leave you alone...

"there is not a lot understood about how exactly tornadoes form, grow and die. Tornado researchers are still trying to solve the tornado puzzle, but for every piece that seems to fit they often uncover new pieces that need to be studied"

quote from the tornado index.

Who do I call? I have a theory...

deb said...

JG, Your description sounds like the eye of a hurricane. I wonder what the thing was doing over your pond for 2 or 3 minutes.

I find the pics fascinating, are the red/purple light patches the light coming through the clouds? Are those pics (with the red light) looking directly up into the storm when the wind was going "up"? What time of day was it? You are right that the pics don't really do justice to the rain drops falling "up", but I think that you need to write everything annd share the info that you have learned. Try these folks: National Severe Storms Laboratory

I think that your land being lower than the average terrain in the area is why your house is still standing. The house I moved from before coming to NC was 7 miles from the Gulf and the first rise in elevation was between my house and the Gulf, then my land dipped back down. My neighbors on the higher elevation (c.65 feet above sea level as opposed to my house being at 55 feet) always had more hurricane damage, once the wind is stopped by something the storm just carries on above that elevation, at least it does in a hurricane.

John G. said...

"Are the red/purple light patches the light coming through the clouds? Are those pics (with the red light) looking directly up into the storm when the wind was going "up"? What time of day was it?"

Yes...Yes...between 5:30 and 6:30 pm when the pics were took. The storms did not subside until after 11:00 pm.

Thanx for the link...
I will e them, and appreciate all your analysis.

Judy B. said...

WOW... JG... that was quite an experience.. Glad yoou made it thru OK...

I grew up in tornado alley (Kansas) and never had a close call like that... the fear of tornadoes is a part of why I moved to the NorthWest tho...

I do not even like to go back and visit...

I haven't been on this thread for quite a while so when I get some time, I will have to go back and see what else has been going on...

John G. said...

We need to mass produce and market a weather camera.
You know how some cameras imprint the date on the photo?
Same concept only we would include GPS locations, wind speed, bar pressure, temp, humidity, direction of photo, time of day, etc.
We also need it to take pictures in different light situations to gain maximum resolution and exposure. We can then upload or send off this information when necessary, to the National Weather Research Lab for analysis. We will better understand Global Warming and string theory when we implement this information and make everyday people a part of the process...
Dopplar radar is a nice tool, yet a storm front is far from a single entity. We may find out storms change in form every 6 to 18 months based on different and emerging factors in "triggers" which create these storms...

John G. said...

When exploring ancient cultures and the possibilities of life on other planets why are we always looking for the source or eureka evidence to support our theories?
What would be wrong with exploring the space where our solar system/planet were at the precise time in history we wish to investigate? After all everything in the known universe which consumes energy and exerts waste leaves evidence, IE dino bones, pyramids, pottery, tools, jet contrails...
It would stand to reason some of this waste evidence would also be preserved, perhaps better preserved, in the vacuum of space.
Scientists are only now learning about our universe when it was only 500 million years old based on light and matter residue. They are just recently starting to learn dark energy is possibly linked to leftover energy from the "big bang" sort of like the signature left when a jet crosses the sound barrier.
I propose future space exploration missions should include probes which return to the precise location within the universe of our earth and solar system at the times being researched. See what trace evidence was left behind by our lively little planet. Use the same technology being used to research light traces from our early universe to research our early solar system/earth...

deb said...

Makes complete sense to me JG...very astute concept. That is another idea that I think should be shared; not sure who to share it with, but perhaps those who are constantly listening to space for signs of other life.

John G. said...

"not sure who to share it with"

Richard!? just kidding...


http://planetary.org/home/

if not already, become a member...

John G. said...

reply from inquiry to NOAA for anyone interested. Thanx again for the link deb...


Severe thunderstorms, especially those that end up producing tornadoes,
often have a cloud that hangs down from the base of the thunderstorm,
called a wall cloud. Here are some photos, though the resolution is
poor: http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/nssl.nssl0051.htm,
http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/nssl/nssl0044.htm, or
http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/nssl/nssl0133.htm. My bet would be this is
what you saw.

As for your questions...

1.) *How do power transmission lines trigger these touchdowns? * Power
transmission lines do not trigger tornadoes. The events of the low cloud
passing over power lines followed by a tornado touchdown is coincidental.

2.) *Have we ever studied the effect of electricity on these clouds as
they pass over? * Yes. The National Severe Storms Laboratory has
conducted several field experiments that launch electric field meters
into thunderstorms. The most recent can be found here:
http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/projects/telex. They were measuring the
electrical field profile of the storms, which will hopefully increase
their understanding of how a storm becomes electrified. Also check out
our current understanding of how electrical charge is distributed in a
thunderstorm: http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/primer/lightning/ltg_schematic.html.

3.) *Why is the power grid not shut down when a tornado warning is
issued? *It is nearly impossible to predict exactly where a tornado will
touch down, and the track it will take. Shutting down a power grid would
prevent any communication from the National Weather Service, emergency
management folks, television stations and radio stations to the public
about warnings - and put many people in danger. Plus, though NWS offices
often have back-up generators, but there is the risk that our detection
and warning capabilities would be crippled.

4.) *Why do the phones and electricity fade out or pulsate when this
cloud passes as opposed to just going out? *Thunderstorm winds could
cause tree limbs to touch power lines or power lines to slap together.
Lightning could have struck utility equipment. All of these events could
cause the power to blink.




Thank you for your interest.

NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory

Richard Yarnell said...

JG

Would you check the links you provided. I got a "bad link" notice and was sent directly to the corner for a time out. I tried adding "l" to htm and that didn't help.

Thanks.

John G. said...

I apologize for not checking them before posting. These are the links they provided me. I will E the joker and see if they will send me some good links.
Based on their statements, Most of their reply makes sense; some of it does not...
I wonder if the author of the reply has ever experienced a storm of this magnitude or if he/she just repeated what they had been taught.

1) The wall cloud was moving more debris and "wind" closer to the ground then it was higher up in the atmosphere. At one point the tops of the trees were still while the grass and shrubs closer to the ground appeared to be bent almost sideways from the pressure or wind.
I had the impression at some point that this wall cloud was looking for any kind of energy it could even if that energy came from snapping trees. Also the "hole" in the clouds appeared to zig zag as opposed to following a straight path. References have been made that a tornado is similar to watching water funnel down a drain. What on the inside of the earths crust makes the atmosphere want to drain like that? Ley lines?

2)"They were measuring the
Electrical field profile of the storms, which will hopefully increase
Their understanding of how a storm becomes electrified."

I just told them, these storms will sap energy from anywhere and anything just to stay alive, power lines included. I also believe a tornado is just a part of the actual funnel yet the whole front is necessary to feed the funnel. If any part of the wall cloud is interrupted or disconnected the funnel will either never form or cease to exist.
Can electricity be condensed?

3)"Shutting down a power grid would
Prevent any communication from the National Weather Service, emergency
Management folks, television stations and radio stations to the public
About warnings - and put many people in danger."

Makes a good case for self contained solar power...

Personal experience leads me to believe the tornado sirens and electricity are actually doing more harm than good, besides if a wall cloud comes over it is going out anyway so I do not really agree with their assessment, but they are the experts.

4)"*Thunderstorm winds could
Cause tree limbs to touch power lines or power lines to slap together.
Lightning could have struck utility equipment. All of these events could
Cause the power to blink."

I did not say blink... I said fade and pulse, almost as if the energy were being pulled out of the air and being sent somewhere else, I have been in situations where tree limbs hit power lines and blinked, this was not like that... oh well he/she just answered my question in that they have probably never experienced one of these power drains first hand.

On 03/14/2007 there were black helicopters flying up and down the power lines and path of the storm...wonder what has got their interest?

Thanx for posting Richard, no harm meant but this is one event I wish you had experience with.
I'll post the good links if/when they reply.

John G. said...

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/nssl/nssl0133.htm

try this...

deb said...

JG, I had heard that a tornado is like a whirlpool in a river in which the right combination of currents cause the top current layer to drain to the bottom curent layer. In a river that whirlpool stays in the same place, but in the atmosphere all of the currents are moving so the whirlpool/tornado moves too. If the electricity phenomenon that you observed wasn't a coincidence then I wonder if the electrical field surrounding the power lines somehow causes the immediately surrounding air to have less pressure, probably very slightly, but enough to be the least amount of resistance.

Question: Are all northern hemisphere tornados counter clockwise and southern hemisphere clockwise, the same as hurricanes? I looked (briefly) at wiki and didn't see the answer.

One another note, I thought some of you might want to check this out:

French space agency opens UFO files to public

"France's space agency is opening about 100,000 documents to the public, putting years of UFO research on the Web."

Richard Yarnell said...

Our County extension service, annually, organizes what we call "Tree School." It's for small woodlot owners and commercial timber operators, and has grown every year. Two to four classes, exhibits and lunch. I took a class in property rights, GMO, Conservation easements, and mapping. Since we first volunteered to help 8 years ago, it's grown from 150 attendees to 750.

The GMO session was taught by a Poplar researcher from OSU. He has the credentials and is politically much smarter than ordinary. It was clear he was defending his funding. He was very subtly shooting at those who object to genetic engineering and took every opportunity to say there were legitimate concerns just before he lobbed a mortar shell of derision at us.

When I started asking questions about what I think are the real dangers of engineering plants, putting experiments out in the field where wind and animals can spread organisms that haven't been proven beneficial and benign, he started a mini-campaign against my arguments.

He is a dangerous man. His work has been threatened by public attitude that he ascribes to ignorant hysteria. When I finally got the floor again, artfully after the session had ended, about 20 people stayed to watch the bloody fight. I used three examples to illustrate dangerous uncertainty, all of them defended by him in the course of his lecture: reduction of lignin in poplar trees; "golden rice," and bent grass engineered to be almost immune to glyphosphate (Round Up).

While I'm not a geneticist, I've been around agriculture all my life, have done my share of grafting, plant breeding (intentionally crossing plants) and selective seed saving. I, along with everyone else, was initially hearted by the rice experiments, until I realized that a) there were early field trials (rice is a grass that is wind pollinated) and that there hadn't been much testing to determine whether the load of Vitamin A would be toxic or detrimental to birds and other animals that would scavenge the crop or even whether there had been dosage experiments done with people.

I'm pretty well informed about the acquisition of plant breeders by the chemical companies which manufacture pesticides and herbicides. I've argued against wholesale granting of plant patents, genes, except under very stringent rules that require the applicant to show that the gene has been manipulated and has a beneficial application; and I do know how the use of plant patents has disrupted traditional farming markets in so called "Third world" countries. I have a pretty good grasp of what happened in the Soy and Rape Seed fields in Canada and believe there was a clear miscarriage of justice there.

Well guess who has funded this guy's research? Guess what grants he was trying to protect? Richard will now retire to defend the notion that it's not just Doctors who should first, do no harm.

deb said...

Hum, Monsanto? (I ran out of time, but you have hit upon a topic that seriously scares me...I'll come back to it when I can)

Richard Yarnell said...

On the Monsanto seed issue:

http://www.seedalliance.org/index.php?page=SeminisMonsanto

This is only one of their companies.

I'd hoped the history included in the article would mention other large chemical company seed production companies.

deb said...

I try and keep up with news stories containing "genetically modified" and did a search today...here are some of the stories that turned up:

GMOs unfit for consumption

"The work of press agents consists of not just getting the media to carry news favorable to their clients, but also to suppress information inimical to their business. Jargon in the traditional newsroom has an aptly descriptive phrase for it: “Kill story!”

Judge halts sales of Monsanto GMO alfalfa

Plugging The Holes in Biotech Food Safety

FDA Needs Authority To Assure Safety Of GE Foods, Says Report


While searching for "GMO" or "geneticaly engineered" I found more than a few "Our apologies, the requested page was not found. Please double-check the URL for proper spelling and capitalization. If you're having trouble finding..."

Obviously some powerful people who can pull the plug on news stories on the net.

And just an FYI: A new comet

Green Comet Lovejoy - Cometeers Coming From Below?

John G. said...

I sent more pictures and descriptions to the weather research folks and here is their reply...

"Hello,

I apologize for the bad link. I used a "." instead of a "/".

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/nssl/nssl0051.htm

It is possible that it was already a tornado, but the funnel was not
visible. There is nothing inside of the earth's crust that affects a
tornado. A water funnel can be recreated without a draining mechanism.

Thank you for your interest and your support.

Sincerely,
NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory"




Notice the power lines behind the wall cloud?

Deb,
Your observation makes sense, can I send that paragraph to the lab?

"If the electricity phenomenon that you observed wasn't a coincidence then I wonder if the electrical field surrounding the power lines somehow causes the immediately surrounding air to have less pressure, probably very slightly, but enough to be the least amount of resistance."

One of The best explanations I have found so far about tornado structure and direction is at howstuffworks/tornado

I'll E you when my daughter gets out of surgery...
Congrats On being published in the SSB book Christopher, cool IDEA
Election Channel.Org. huh?

Richard Yarnell said...

JG

In regards electrical fields and tornado formation:

If you do power calculations for each of the phenomena, I think you'll find that the difference between the energy involved in a tornado overwhelms the amount of energy contained in the fields surrounding even the biggest power lines.

Now, when it comes to influencing the behavior and siting of tornadoes, there is the attraction that trailer parks seem to have for heavy vortices....

deb said...

There is some truth to the mobile home park/tornado link. Could it be that there is much more electricity being used in a mobile home park per acre as opposed to single family homes?

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