Tuesday, April 03, 2007

New Space

A new thread with the Enterprise for John G.
Pick up where you left off.

I would imagine in the vastness of space it might be just as difficult to stay on target/topic as it is on this blog. Here it isn't a problem.

As I get ready for my journey I have less time to procrastinate on-line and need to focus on the mission at hand.


John G. said...

"New Space" Awesome!

Reminds me of Richard shootin' my theories...Oh well, he only has to miss once and we have new juice for the pickup.

The dirt probably was composting.
I believe it was a mixture of some sort of nitrogen fertilizer and finely ground pine bark.

I read an interesting article about ethanol. Milk prices will go up due to increased demand for corn.

Do they test the stuff when it is condensed high up in the atmosphere?

We already know they are going to saturate the fields trying to increase yeild to keep all the hybrids going. It's going to leech into water and food supply, mess with the ozone everytime a storm passes by, increase breathing problems, strain healthcare and probably send one or two wildlife species the way of the dino's.
Sooner or later "string theory" will kick in and all the residual no one likes to talk about will be sent to it's own version of yucca and hope we get by long enough to figure out what to do with it.

We are not going to find a safe alternative in farms and compost piles. All that is going to happen on that road is we are going to mess the environment more than we are already, only faster.
We have to take risks and look at the Galapagos of the universe and figure out what works. We know what it all does happy by itself, but what can we make it do when it all comes together at a crossroads?

We need to build a cyclonic condenser which utilizes it's own static electricity to run and the only exhaust is water. Call it fusion power...
The device will probably be in the form of an hourglass.
It works everywhere else, black holes, hurricanes, tornadoes, massive amounts of energy realighned all at once. We are in the age of computers and here we are, still playing around with the dirt and peoples food supply to get to work.
We can and must do better.
Take a risk and build the condensor, things will start not to look so amusing.
Ethanol is a road we need not travel.

deb said...

"The device will probably be in the form of an hourglass."

I'm brainstorming again...

I've wondered about making a smaller "home" version of the "tower of power" where solar heated air causes a continuous flow of wind during the day. Hot air would come from channels in a sub layer of roof. The air would come into the "tower" at an angle (as per Richard's friends' patent) and intensify wind speed, and instead of a strait "tower" it would be hourglass shaped with the turbine in the "waist" of the hourglass, which will intensify the wind even more.

What do you think Richard? Could this be done in a chimney sized roof fixture, albeit larger than average but still stable enough for the average home?

John G. said...

"Do they test the stuff when it is condensed high up in the atmosphere?"

I guess not, at this point the electrical grid and farmland are starting to look like bigger GW culprits than carbon based fossil fuels...

"I've wondered about making a smaller "home" version of the "tower of power" where solar heated air causes a continuous flow of wind during the day."

Right track! With computers we can constantly adjust baffles to keep the airflow at the proper balance to maintain maximum efficiency as well as capture any residual energy before it disseminates.
I have read about the inefficiencies in trying to reuse energy in all forms from transportation vehicles, yet the desire and mathematics require we just keep the vehicles aerodynamic to reach maximum efficiency. Have we ever considered building vehicles and roads, which utilize excess energy from the vehicle, which traveled first?
IE: If you get on the tail of a semi on the interstate it has been said the drag will pull you, the result you use less fuel. I do not know if that is true or not but the concept is interesting. Build efficient transportation and any waste energy is somehow picked up by the vehicles which follow increasing their efficiency.

Here's a stretch but it's a useless question that needs asking. How stuffworks.com has an interesting piece this month about super colliers trying to find elements, which exist only briefly and after being smashed together at light speed. This is being done trying to understand the Big Bang. Well an explosion as massive as the big bang would not smash particles at light speed and then disappear, let's say that brief instant the element is in existence it is smashed again at light speed by either a sister element or one of the same which caused the first elemental creation, what elements would it then leave and for how long?
When we figure that out, we will know once we get energy from the "power tower" how to enhance it or make it more efficient.
The condensation thing storm fronts do which create all that energy kind of reminds me of a back draft common in smoldering fires, we need to put that concept to use in our energy condensing unit or "power tower"

John G. said...

"I've wondered about making a smaller "home" version of the "tower of power" where solar heated air causes a continuous flow of wind during the day."

"Power Tunnels?"

a massive one which is underground and extends part underground and part underwater, it is heat and cooled by solar panels and using a technique similar to the Roman aquaduct system only it moves air using engineering and it's own weight. As the air passes through the Tunnel it moves some sort of wind turbines, yet to be developed, and generates electricity feeding the grid. We do not want to use batteries, we just use the energy as it comes onto the grid. It could also be a massive public works project bettering the economy. It is clean and renewable.

John G. said...


We need to be smart about it and use it also as a giant filtering system for the atmosphere helping remove the many tons of pollution which are generated daily. The dirty filters or stuff removed can be used for something else. Montreal would be a good place to test, or even Atlanta. Once we perfect it here we could carry the technology to mars and help regulate the martian atmosphere.

Power Tunnels, The opportunities are unlimited and it is eco friendly. It would take the resources of government, oil companies, energy companies, mfg. etc. and the rewards would be good for our economy for centuries.

deb said...

On subways and underground trains there is always wind in the tunnels, especially on the stairs from the lower levels to the upper levels. Also, interstate highways are very windy. I have never seen small scale windmills used to generate electricity, only the giant ones. Would many small wind turbines work? Perhaps, if interstate medians were lined with them, or the tunnels above the trains were lined in turbines?

deb said...

Hubble telescope reveals spectacular spiral galaxy

John G. said...

"Would many small wind turbines work?"

In the age of Nano tech, yup!
one by itself is insignificant, but get millions of them and line the walls with panels of lil turbines which collectivly generate power. Multiply that by miles and miles, that is a lot of energy. Use magnetic bearings to reduce friction, solor to spin the fans which will increase or decrease air flow and run the heaters and coolers. Enough smart people get together and you will have renewable energy for centuries to come. The only byproduct would be fresh air and fresh water. If contractors start putting them in everytime they build a subdivision, the neighborhood could tap into the "wind grid" to heat and cool their homes, further reducing the demand for electricity.
You could probably learn a lot from interstate and train tunnels, but would meet a lot of resistance trying to harness peoples excess energy.
Atlantis in Nassau.
They have this glass tube which goes out into the water. You could be blazing hot and walk by the entrance of the tube and the draft of cool air is very strong and inviting...same concept...
There was an interesting program on Nova talking about a trillion dollar
tunnel crossing the atlantic for superfast trains, A lot of the technology for that could be used for the power tunnels. Build enough of them and designers may get their trillion dollar train resulting in bookoodles of jobs...

Power tunnels?!

deb said...

I guess my question was whether a small turbine can effectively produce energy that can be turned into electricity that feeds the grid.

John G. said...

"I guess my question was whether a small turbine can effectively produce energy that can be turned into electricity that feeds the grid."

Not all by itself, but millions possibly billions of little ones lining the walls on panels could. Not to mention other innovative new technologies that will come out of these tunnels as they are built and studied.

One landscape light does not illuminate my yard or lake, yet several dozen strategically placed illuminate it like a christmas tree. Same concept...

Judy B. said...

Just catching up on this thread...
The "steam"/"heat" that comes off the dirt piles sounds exactly like composting to me...
We buy diary compost (manure mixed with straw) that is left to "work" and it gets so hot it can start fires if it is not turned often enough...

John G. said...

in reference to the spinning galaxy you posted Deb, leads me to ask,
Pretty much everything we can see in the universe spins.Storms, Planets, solar systems, black holes,galaxies,etc...

Let us imagine the universe as a whole is spinning as well, galaxies and all, it just takes millions or even billions of years to make one rotation. Would our perception of whether or not it is expanding be based on where we are in reference to the "loop"
I mean for a while it would appear as if we are being pushed out away from the center of the ring, at some point(every 65 million years or so) we would have to turn inward almost like gravity and go the opposite direction for a few million years (at this time impact craters would be more likely as everything realigns) before turning outwards again as we are now, only in a tighter loop...

deb said...

I suppose I've always realized that everything was in motion, but now that I think about it, you are right JG, generally everything is in a spinning motion...from atoms to universes.

I have always wondered why galaxies appear "flat"...I mean why aren't the stars spinning in all directions around the center?

Why are the planets of our solar system generally on the same plane?

I don't think I'd like to be in the universe that is shrinking instead of expanding.

Richard Yarnell said...

And there's a good chance that the ones not in the same plane came from somewhere else, or at least were displaced by something that did.

As to expanding rather than collapsing: It's going to get mighty cold and lonely if things keep expanding. Little chance for renewal when the fires are banked; less chance of collision or capture.

Be content though, by the time the rest of the stars and galaxies are dead, our sun will have roasted earth (probably subsumed it) wandering off a dwarf and incapable of supporting much of anything.

(Your uplifting thought for the day)

John G. said...

"The "steam"/"heat" that comes off the dirt piles sounds exactly like composting to me..."

I assume it is unanimous then...
Multiply composting by many miles of farmland, till it all up about the time the seasons change, mix in a bunch of untested in the atmosphere chemicals, increase the power through the transmission lines for air conditioning, and wah lah, sit back, & wait on the tornadoes...

Trailer parks receive the most damage when they are hit probably due to the way the park is laid out and due to the fact the underpinning is generally flimsy vinyl. Tornadoes look for the path of least resistance at absolute ground level and are sucking up, not blowing sideways, when the current of air pulls up, it catches the floors of the mobile homes and provides extra lift into the currents (which are not uniform) before ripping the home to shreds.
Most trees are pulled up out of their root sockets before snapping and tossed. Stick built homes leave very little opportunity for the draft to get under the home, that is why the roofs of stick builts generally come off first during a tornado. it is vertical lift, not lateral currents initially doing the damage. That should help when developing new building codes...

"I have always wondered why galaxies appear "flat"...I mean why aren't the stars spinning in all directions around the center?"

Can you see 3-d in space with telescopes? or do solar systems and galaxies have an equator similar to earth's? If so you may have just changed the way we look at space travel...

"Be content though, by the time the rest of the stars and galaxies are dead, our sun will have roasted earth (probably subsumed it) wandering off a dwarf and incapable of supporting much of anything."

We will hopefully be far into intergalactic travel by then...

Well if the universe is spinning and eventually we will turn inwards again and again until arriving back at the core along with everything else, it would stand to reason the Big Bang was not and is not a singular event, the universe remakes itself every 30 billion years or so. I mean, all this stuff that makes up the universe is not just going to go away...

When we figure out what wimps are in dark matter, we will be able to cure cancer along with many other viral diseases.

Am I correct in assuming that traveling faster than the speed of light is not possible because at that speed matter colliding would start nuclear reactions at the atomic level?
I am using the super collider tests in search of unknown elements as reference...

Richard Yarnell said...

No, and don't ask me to explain it: the theoretical limit on speed has to do with the relationship between energy and matter. As you approach the speed of light, it's almost 100% energy.

By using measurements of the "red shift" astronomers now believe they've confirmed that the Universe is expanding and will continue to do so. The trend in the red shift shows that the expansion is speeding up, not slowing down.

With a single telescope, not really. However, we can create binocular vision by taking pictures of the same object at opposite sides of our orbit around the sun. We also infer the shape of objects by observing similar objects that present a different aspect. For example, from our position in the milky way, it's hard to know that we live in a spiral galaxy. But if we look at other galaxies of similar size and age, we can see elements that ours probably shares.

Flat is a relative term. You can easily find the distance from the "top" to the "bottom" of the core of our galaxy. Ditto its arms. Rotation of the whole thing tends to form a disk - rotation is at constant odds with gravity which would make a sphere, if it could. (The sun is slightly larger in diameter at the equator than it is at the poles because it's rotating. So is the earth, though the ratio is less.

John G. said...

"No, and don't ask me to explain it: the theoretical limit on speed has to do with the relationship between energy and matter. As you approach the speed of light, it's almost 100% energy."

I think we are on the same wave length, just different wording. I like your brief explanation better because it gets to my next question quicker...remember the current behind a semi truck on the interstate I asked about? In order to go faster than the speed of light we would need a ball of energy going first and the transport craft would have to be tucked away safely in it's after current so as to stay out of the direct impacts of matter/energy on the windshield. Kind of like when an asteroid hits earth, it never really hits earth, but explodes higher up in the atmosphere due to it's velocity and speed, same difference only we are behind it and the blast is deflected away from us.

"By using measurements of the "red shift" astronomers now believe they've confirmed that the Universe is expanding and will continue to do so. The trend in the red shift shows that the expansion is speeding up, not slowing down."

I am aware of the red shift and expansion theories. But they only cover known light spectrums and matter that can be measured.
What is dark matter doing while everything else expands?
Why does everything in the universe spin and the universe as a whole only expands outward?

We need to put a/several GRACE "satellite" on the moon and one/several on earth.
See what gravitational forces they inflict on one another...

deb said...

JG, I just watched the 'money as Debt' video that Christin posted a link to. I am thinking that the infusion of infrastructure that would boost the economy and put the country on a sustainable path, should come in the way of transportion a la Richard's RUF system and also the idea of testing possible energy sources in space, under the oceans, etc.

John G. said...

" I am thinking that the infusion of infrastructure that would boost the economy and put the country on a sustainable path,"

Interesting video and analysis Deb.
Very realistic...If only Government and Industry...

My vision for a sustainable infrastructure as well as a world and space policy would be healthcare; which would require all that you propose as well. Space is where we are headed, the oceans are how we got here, and RUF is a practical use of the energy we demand from our environment.
America needs to get focused and lead in this area. It will take more than Universal coverage.
Most other sustainable and vibrant economic engines have options or "competition" End result; it is affordable, available to most everyone and consistently developing new products, which rewards the end user through new technologies and lower costs.
I envision a healthcare system, which is available to anyone in the world. When a crisis arises anywhere in the world, the world can look to and expect America to respond with resources and know how.
Young people all over the world should be able to look to our universities and healthcare system for opportunities to become healthcare professionals as well as improve their financial situation here and at home.
A vision such as this would require reworking every facet of our society to respond in kind. From energy, to immigration. The benefits would be sustainable and infinite. The systems in place now are on self-destruct and in reactive mode. I could give examples but you know better than I.
When they broke up Ma Bell there was no obvious reason to do it to the end user, we had phones, local and long distance. As a result we now have cell phones, cordless phones, Internet, text messaging, camera phones, etc. at the touch of a button and from anywhere...and it is affordable.
With healthcare, no options.
We wait for hours on end in waiting rooms, often times only to receive a misdiagnosis. Many people cannot afford to even go and wait for the misdiagnosis. I wonder if anyone has ever figured out how much productivity is lost by workers sitting in waiting rooms. Great Doctor's are leaving the industry in droves for one reason or another, further straining the "system"
There is a whole new kind of "racism" being created as a result. People are no longer pre judged by normal ethnic variations, but by the quality of their healthcare coverage. It's insane.
We all know too well the problems associated with our healthcare system. It sux and is getting worse. There is a general overall "attitude" by healthcare professionals towards patients and vice versa. How sad is that?
Healthcare should and could be the economic and political engine that drives our nation for the next two hundred years and beyond.
We need a massive infusion of hospitals, universities, healthcare providers and healthcare infrastructure to prepare for our aging population. The system has to be available to anybody in the world.
End result will be more sensible space and oceanographic exploration, ruf and energy infrastructure.
We do not need to look at Universal Healthcare in other countries to gauge our vision for ours, there will be no comparison, and ours will be better.
My vision for the next great economic and foreign policy resolves around the healthcare industry. Everything else we do, is doomed to failure if we do not address and lead the worldwide healthcare industry...
Our economy starts and ends at healthcare, why can't our leaders see this?
Using history as a guide...
The clock is ticking

John G. said...

What is the possibility the Martian crust is the Martian atmosphere?

Our magnetic atmosphere makes life sustainable above ground. On mars it quickly escapes into space via the solar wind. Ancient water & lava flows would have left honeycomb caverns throughout the Martian crust and in some circumstances left an environment suited for life forms? The possibility of subsurface oceans and lakes free from gamma rays and solar winds could give rise to some microbial life forms? Like the one discovered under Antarctica.

Every season when it thaws a bit the algae are great feeding grounds for all sorts of marine life in Antarctica.
Perhaps from time to time Martian magma activity pushes some of that water to the surface in such volumes it flows a bit before being swept into space by the solar wind...

deb said...

"Most other sustainable and vibrant economic engines have options or "competition" End result; it is affordable, available to most everyone and consistently developing new products, which rewards the end user through new technologies and lower costs.

Competition doesn't work for healthcare. We would be hard pressed to "shop around" during the middle of a heart attack.

Currently, our gov't gives money to corporations for research, who then give the money to the research universities. We aren't searching for ways to make people well unless it is profitable to a corporation.

Taking the corporate profit out of healthcare is what will provide the best healthcare. The goal of healthcare can either be to make a profit or to cure people and cures aren't profitable. I do firmly believe that doctors want to cure people, but they are not being taught the use and importance of medicines that aren't patented.

One example is bioidentical hormones. American women are at a higher risk for cancer linked to hormones. American women take artificial hormones most of their lives, first as birth control and then as hormone replacement therapy. Most developed countries are using bioidentical hormones for the same purposes, i.e., hormones duplicated from actual humans. These hormones cannot be patented. I believe that the higher cancer rates in the US justify research on synthetic hormones verses bioidentical hormones, but it's just not going to happen in todays climate of how money is used in healthcare research.

Here's an article about Michael Moore's new film about our healthcare system: Controversial Michael Moore Flick "Sicko" Will Compare U.S. Health Care with Cuba's

PS JG, How is your daughter?

Cheryl said...

I've been waiting for Michael Moore's film on health care. It should start a lot of people talking about the sorry state of health care in this country.

John, there's a lot of speculation about Mars. If I remember correctly, they've determined that Mars used to have an atmosphere. I think the low gravity couldn't hold on to it. Many science fiction writers base their stories on real science. There have been a lot of ideas about how to make Mars livable that could work in real life.

John G. said...

"Competition doesn't work for healthcare. We would be hard pressed to "shop around" during the middle of a heart attack."

That is not exactly what I meant... How do I state the frustration felt when a medical emergency arises and there are only one set of facilities for a hundred miles every direction? If you get there in time you are made more uncomfortable "waiting" if you get back to see a doctor you are rushed through a diagnosis so the doc can rush through everyone else waiting?
You probably pass through no less than a dozen healthcare workers in the process and all it takes is one having a bad day to ruin yours.
I cannot look at the loans doctors repay to get their education and the cars they drive and the houses they live in and the wait staff that waits on them and believe all they want is to help people, go to one without insurance, see how quick they want to help? They will send you home. I am not speaking from experience, I am speaking as a dad who rather than sit in waiting rooms, walked around and talked to complete strangers in waiting rooms and listened to their frustrations.
The ironic thing is I never asked anything other than "How are you today?"

Stage 3 b hodgkins, bone scan was negative.

We do not want to make Mars livable, and if we do...BIG Mistake.
"The Prime Directive" makes sense here. Learn what we can and move on.

We need to build and send Voyager craft to all corners of space and beyond, Than make them accessible on the internet in real time, call it the uni-net. People will flock to science by the millions.

John G. said...

One young lady took her nephew in when a rusty nail gashed his head open, they sat there six and one half hours before leaving, Unseen. The child was only three.
Another lady took her 90 year old mother in at 9:00 am with chest pains, at 6:15 pm they got in to see a doctor who ordered up tests and admittance to the hospital, at 3:15 pm the next day they got a room and the tests started, the diagnosis, stress and exhaustion with a touch of dehydration...DUH!
This lady was smart and a healthcare provider, insurance and funds were not an issue.
She believes the problem is it takes to long to process patients out once a diagnosis is made bottlenecking the whole system. She stated the best time to have a heart attack and go to the ER is Sunday evening and Monday early AM, The hospitals would have cleared all the rooms and processing throughout the weekend...
Not only will some sort of "competition" work with healthcare, it is necessary.
Med stops need to be as common in communities as McDonalds. Staff then with nurses, mom's, Grandmother's etc. Not every healthcare facility needs a doctor, not every ache needs a drug, sometimes reassurance, Neosporin and a band aid with a hug will suffice.
Healthcare needs to be a required subject from pre-k all the way through...

Back to mars and composting, at what point below the Martian surface will temps and conditions be favorable for life to evolve free from the threat of gamma rays?
That is where we start.
Life is possible on earth for many reasons, water, and distance from the sun, temp, and the moon. Due to the distance Mars is from the sun it would be difficult to recreate those conditions there...unless you move a few components around...There is a "happy" zone below the Martian surface where life forms can thrive if not already.

I wonder if Mars is the body which slammed Earth a few billion years back leaving us the moon???

Question: The moon is moving away from earth, the universe is expanding, are the planets moving away from the Sun?

Thanx everybody!

deb said...


Wal-Mart to open 400 in-store clinics

Richard Yarnell said...

Head on over to spaceweather.com, take your red/blue 3D glasses (or they tell you how to make them) and take a look at the sun in 3d photos taken in a variety of wavelengths.

John G. said...

We can test the "micro turbines" for the wind tunnels on chain link fence...perhaps we could test some sort of solar on chain link also...

Still reviewing tornado footage, past and present, common denominator, fresh tilled farmland, power lines. A batch came through again a couple of weeks ago. This time in the early AM (UNUSUAL) every single one started at the fields and power transmission lines. I am not talking about normal power lines but the huge tower lines. One of them took the lines and towers completely out.

Interesting article Deb, especially since it is being done in partnership with the SEIU...HMMMMM...Wonder where they got the IDEA from. Oh well, it's a start.

deb said...

I'm imagining a scenario where you go in Wal-Mart because you feel really sick and you get a little pager so you can do some shopping while you wait your turn to see the doc an spread the germs further throughout the community.

Anyway, less expensive medical care would be a benefit. And Wal-Mart might offer a discount to their workers, many making $240. a week for a 40 hour week, so that they can even afford to see a doctor. (of course they aren't full time at Wal-Mart but work 20-30 for them and usually 20 somewhere else for $6. and hour also...that way they always remain part-time employees)

BTW, There is a better than good chance that this post will be picked up by wallyworld's spy agency via feed:

Wal-Mart running private intelligence agency to monitor critics

Richard Yarnell said...

Are they doctors? Or are they nurse practitioners? My understanding is that they are the former, limited in the scope of things they can treat.

If I'm right, NP's are on a leash, supervised, more or less, and feed prescription business directly to the Walmart pharmacy.

Not saying it's a bad idea, although having another place where healthy and sick folks congregate together bodes ill (sorry). Perhaps a second entrance for the clinic with a pass through window to the pharmacy.

Fair disclosure: I've never darkened the door of a Walmart and don't intend to.

BTW, my HMO, Kaiser, has paper masks, tissues, hazardous bio disposal buckets, and alcohol hand wash at every entrance. Anyone with an active cough is expected to use them.

John G. said...

"I'm imagining a scenario where you go in Wal-Mart because you feel really sick and you get a little pager so you can do some shopping while you wait your turn to see the doc an spread the germs further throughout the community."

I woke up thinking the exact same thing...You had already posted.

What is ironic is it will also make you think of all the toy's and other products imported from cheap labor, what little critters hitch a ride in the packaging before being dispensed through wal marts dist system. Have you ever noticed kids seem to go to the doctors for anti biotics during or right after gift giving holidays? Has anyone ever researched to see what germs hitch a ride in the imported packaging? think of the irony...cheap dirty products so you have more cash to pay the most expensive inefficient inaccessible healthcare system in the universe...you would almost think they planned it.

I have darkened the door of wal marts, back as a kid I had to if I wanted to get paid. I sub contracted with them building display merchandise and floor layouts. What ever happened to the Made in America signs? They all seemed to queitly disappear when SR. Passed away.

Thanx for the article on wal clinics Deb. It made me call the local developers and P&Z and request we turn all the local vacant wal mart type shopping centers into healthcare centers. relieve pressure from the local hospitals and sick people do not have to walk as much or go to the 80th floor where you normally find the heart clinincs. They assured me I had started a conversation and it would be looked into as it made sense...we'll see.

Cheryl said...

I haven't heard about germs in packaging, but there has been a lot of news about unsafe food.

The melanine in wheat and rice gluten isn't just for pet food. If we import food from countries with even more lax rules, we need to inspect every shipment. And charge an inspection fee for the increased cost. I wonder how cost effective that would make imports.

deb said...

All the more reason to eat local food.

Sorry to keep changing the subject, but it seems that we aren't really using the other threads much and I wanted to share this article:
Earth to aliens: we know where you live

"Once started, however, the search for alien life may prove never-ending. Sir Martin Rees, the astronomer royal, has pointed out that the universe contains at least 100 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars. It means there are more stars than all the grains of sand on every beach and in every desert on Earth."

Richard Yarnell said...

I just finished a Scientific American article the was posited as proof that there are an infinite number of parallel universes that include ones that contain us in nearly identical, if not synchronized time lines.

The (very much simplified) argument is based on probability. If there's one universe, it's unlikely there is only one. If there's more than one, then it's probable that there are an infinite number of them. The article even puts a number on how far (or close) the next universe is to our own - 10^28th cm. When my reeling head was finished with the article, I was left with the uncomfortable thought that if our universe is expanding, and if the next universe is that close, just where is ours expanding? What trouble will we be in if we encroach on the probably also expanding universe. (To visualize, think of a container of closely packed marbles.)

Cheryl said...

I could never figure out where all the matter and energy for the new universes is supposed to come from.

John G. said...

"What trouble will we be in if we encroach on the probably also expanding universe."

Or what opportunities will we discover? There will be a point where they intersect; all bets on physics are off at that point. Truth be known they may co exist, occupying the same time and space. To each other "entertaining the point they may or may not be aware"
The opposite would appear to be dark energy and dark matter...
Due to the basics in the building blocks of stuff, they cannot interact, kind of like oil and water; they just pass through leaving one another to its business with no real events or interference from one another...
Far fetched...I know.

"I could never figure out where all the matter and energy for the new universes is supposed to come from."

That is where string theory comes into play. We must remember nothing ever goes away in space; it is preserved there for eternity. Like a photograph. Even light beams. Remember the link Deb recently posted about a new found galaxy by Hubble; it took the light for that picture 60 million years to get here. Everything there is probably different now, but the history of that moment is preserved forever in the vacuum of space, like a photograph.
Matter and energy are no different, it does not go away. It simply floats off (possibly diluted a bit) until it eventually interacts with other stuff and the laws of physics take over and walah something else is created from what appears to be nothing at all. We must also remember we cannot prove the big bang only happened once, just as we cannot prove the "universe" is not fully aware and did not use the big bang to achieve its results...
Like the earth, the universe recycles and evolves constantly. History is of no help when predicting where Mother Nature is taking us, almost irrelevant.

"Once started, however, the search for alien life may prove never-ending. Sir Martin Rees, the astronomer royal, has pointed out that the universe contains at least 100 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars. It means there are more stars than all the grains of sand on every beach and in every desert on Earth."

Each grain is unique unto itself.
Put sand under a microscope, no two are identical. As these galaxies float through the universe they are accumulating traces of what was there before, how long ago is also relevant. Billions of universes would seem to increase the chances of abundant life, but when you start chipping away at all the factors necessary for intelligent life to prosper or evolve even, you can narrow it down real fast. So much so that intelligent life forms existing elsewhere out there is probably reduced to less than a hundred chances...if that.
IE: Life would be much different here had something not comes along and slammed earth giving us the moon many billion years ago, at the precise time in earth’s development as it did. What is the likelihood that happened twice at the same time with all the other gazillion or so factors which were necessary for us to evolve to space exploring species in the past 30 years?

far fetched...I know.

Cheryl said...

I'm sorry John, but I'm just too literal to follow it. My questions on the universe are more on the level of this.

We all have fairly common names. Even in such a small group, you would think that there would be at least one repeat.


John G. said...

"We all have fairly common names. Even in such a small group, you would think that there would be at least one repeat."


Ok Try this.

100 billion lottery tickets sold. one winner.

Clueless on the 42...

Cheryl said...

In "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" a computer named Deep Thought was built to calculate the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. When the answer was revealed as 42, they were forced to build a more powerful computer to work out what the Ultimate Question actually was, but their plans never come to fruition.

dan said...

JG, I was also clueless about "42". After a Google search, it seems "42" is the answer to the "ultimate question", one that's yet to be determined. I hope that clears it up for you.

John G. said...

Clear as a bell...
as in hwy 42?

The ultimate question has really always been not who what when where or why but "how"

John G. said...

"Both observations of real tornadoes, computer simulations, and laboratory
studies (in tornado vortex chambers) have shown that the "surface roughness," i.
e., the measure of how disrupted the wind near the ground is by objects such as
dirt, rocks, hills, trees, and even houses, can either increase or decrease the
wind speeds in a tornado. Occasionally we see in tornado videos the vortex
increasing in intensity when it travels from one type of ground surface (say
field) into a grove of trees or housing subdivision. It does not always
happen, but often enough we are aware of it.

Saturn is outside of NOAA's focus, though electrical discharges have been
inferred from measurements by passing spacecraft.

Dust devils and sandstorms can generate some electric fields by frictional
charging (work function), but in thunderstorms this plays no significant role
at all. Rebounding collisions between ice particles are the main charging
mechanism in thunderstorms."

NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory

Here is another response from the NOAA with some interesting info for anyone interested...

The recent tornados in the midwest have kept them busy yet helped them understand some aspects of these storms thanx to video phones.
Power transmission towers continue to be a factor in each. Is this because there are so many in close proximity as richard stated or something else as I suspect?

deb said...

Speaking of the power of a vortex... Industrial pollutants get cut down to size - with Israel's Vortex

John G. said...

cool link.
There is one at discover.com where scientists are developing a ball that will analyze light beams from every angle. It is different because most animals can only see from one angle and or spectrum. They will hook it up to a super fast computer to crunch data and see what pops up. cool.

Have we ever looked at viruses and illnesses from that perspective?
I mean all living organisms have an optimum level of light requirements to reproduce and prosper. Do we know how much certain bodily organs are getting through the skin? and is it helping viruses and bacteria prosper or keeping them in check?
It may explain why some people get sick based on body fat and weight as well as skin pigmentation and others do not. If we knew what the optimum light requiements were for certain viruses and illnesses within the body, we may be able to deprive them of those requirements and slow their reproduction or reverse it all together. Cure stuff without ever "firing" a shot

Stick a flashlight up to the palm of your hand and look at it from the other side, then get your spouse to do it. No two light spectrums are alike.
I know some canadians tried some form of this but did they go far enough?
Take mushrooms out of the cave and plant them in the Sahahra...
same concept.

Cheryl said...

I saw this on a History Channel show about products we wouldn't have without NASA.

"The basic technology behind PRP is thousands of microcapsules—tiny balls of beeswax with hollow centers. Water cannot penetrate the microcapsule’s cell, but oil is absorbed right into the beeswax spheres as they float on the water’s surface. This way, the contaminants—chemical compounds that originally come from crude oil such as fuels, motor oils, or petroleum hydrocarbons—are caught before they settle."

If it's used in water, microbes natural to the water then eat the beeswax. Enzymes released during digestion then break up the oil.

Now if we can only find a solution to the bee's colony collapse disorder.


deb said...

I noticed in the article that only 5% of oil in our water is from spills. Perhaps we should sprinkle the beeswax product regularly at marinas. A docking fee surcharge could offset the cost.

Speaking of bees, has anyone heard of any progress as to the cause (and therefore a possible solution) of CCD?

John G. said...


John G. said...

Bees and whales?
Almost Sounds like earths tectonic plates are restless...

John G. said...

Some thoughts on bees. After Katrina, oil companies were allowed to not put certain treatments in gasoline to keep up with demand, Did this contribute to CCD? At nighttime there seems to be more spiders coming out then usual? could insects transport and infect crops with disease the same way they pollinate?
There has been two reported incidents of meteors crashing through houses throughout the country this past year, is this because there are more houses or are we passing out of the milky way safe zone and as a result space debris and gamma rays are more intense and bees are the first to "feel the heat"
Is climate change and the higher percentage of volcanic activity in the last decade doing something to our upper level atmosphere?
The disaster in the Indian ocean on dec 26 a couple years ago, what impact did that have on the oceanagraphic conveyor belt and climate?
Has CCD ever occured before?

Richard Yarnell said...

Resident skeptic checking in:

CCD probably not caused by ingredients not put into gasoline.

Yes, insects can be a vector for plant diseases, carrying bacteria and virus from one plant to another. However, most diseases need an opportunity to enter a plant, either through a wound or through prolonged contact where the plant's normal outer surface has been weakened. However, spiders are all over plants and their numbers ebb and flow. Doubt very much their numbers are significant to most plants. Locusts on the other hand....

We are the milky way, or part of it. We're rather far from the center of the galaxy in one of the "arms" and in the same plane as most of the other stars in the galaxy. The milkyway is our edge on view of our closest neighbors.

Meteors are almost certainly locally produced by collisions between bodies within the solar system or the OORT cloud. Meteorites, the vast majority of them, are tiny remnants of comets. They are ejected from the comets that pass close enough to the sun to warm up: the "tail" of a comet is a mixture of volatile gas and the solid particles trapped in it. The particles follow the same orbit as the comet (almost) and we pass through them from time to time.

I assume you're referring to the Sumatra/Andaman earthquakes and their ensuing tsunamis. Very little. A curious thing about waves, both sound and water: the medium doesn't travel much even though the wave appears to. In simple and only generally accurate terms, energy is passed on from one molecule to the next. The individual molecule doesn't move much after the initial displacement. To put it differently, the water that was displaced by the upwelling of the fractured plate doesn't travel. Its movement is passed on to an increasingly wider ring of water, over and over again. So far as I know, earthquakes are not caused by climate change although climate can be affected by venting from volcanoes which are often associated with earthquakes.

There have been a couple of scholarly papers emerge recently that suggest there have been mysterious disappearances of bees. Whether the contemporary reports, limited by the ability of observers to travel far or to communicate quickly with their fellow observers, limit the credibility of those reports. People are looking for similar stories from different times.


deb said...

The articles that I have read on CCD seem to imply that the current bee decline is different from those in the past, namely that there are no dead bees in the hives but that the bees have just disappeared. Also, other critters aren't going after the honey that the deserted bees left behind. There has got to be a telltale sign in the deserted hives.

As far as what earthly changes will occur as a result of the earth starting a new trek through the zodiac, I don't think that any of those changes will ever effect any of my relatives who even remotely have a recollection that I ever existed. I'm not sure how long it takes for the space "loop" from the start of Aquarius to the end of Capricorn, but if earth's geologic forces are being stressed due to our current position in the Milky Way, I'd guess that it is going to take a lot of years for those stresses to show up as geologic changes on the earth's crust.

The way I see it the earth's crust is like a really, really slow round lava lamp. The stuff heats up and rises, only to be cooled at the surface to become rock. The fresh lava cracks that rock. Plus throw in that the big masses of rock aren't really staying still. Anything that is happening now started a millennium ago.

JG, I do think you were right on about there being more houses for the meteorites to hit. Playing marbles is easy at the start of the game when there are a lot of marbles.

I'm behind on reading the blog (again), which I would rather do than lay tile...but the tile is calling...tile would be much more fun if it wasn't on the floor;-)

Oh, Christopher: Are you in NC? Wanna lay tile???

Richard Yarnell said...

The fact that there aren't any dead bees in or around the hives is contrasted with most modern hive problems. Several hundred years ago, the phrase "disappearing bees" was used suggesting there weren't any dead bees then either.

200,000 years, give or take....

John G. said...

Cicadas? They only come out every 17 years or so what impact do they have on the bee population. Richard, I get the impression you believe CCD is a normal occurence every so many years?

Now that you mention it I remember an old oak tree when I was growing up which had a large branch which came out approx 10 foot before it shot straight up. Where it bent to grow up looked as if an old branch had snapped off, the inside of the branch was hollow with the exception of a large bee hive (we would later find out how large) full of honey bees. The tree was located next to the side door of a 100 plus year old farm house surrounded by you guessed it, working farm land. approx. the mid 80's all the bees disappeared and all we could see was the oozing hive and a few bees. When I asked what happened to the bees the reply was "don't know they just left" several years later the bees returned with a vengence. There were many more of them and they were much more aggresive, so much so the farmer decided to take out the tree. When it was cut the entire branch and half way down the main root was filled with bees and honey, literally millions.
Some things which were different before they left and came back;
A peach orchard was taken out as well as some woods and farmland and new housing put up in it's place.
I went out there yesterday just to see what the area looked like and behind the new housing area in the woods were beehives boxes, 20 years later. I did not venture out to see if they had bees in them yet they appeared to be working maintained boxes from the road.
Could CCd be a normal occurence? some sort of mass hibernation necessary for the species like cicadas?

John G. said...

BTW Thank you for the very informative last postings...
I never really appreciated nor understood the transfer of energy in water until then. holy cow that was a lot of energy!

Glad I asked. Good luck on your houses and moving...

Richard Yarnell said...

No, I don't think Disappearing Bee Syndrome is normal, but there may have been historical references to a similar thing.

The breeding cycle of the insect is what governs their emergence every 17 years. So far as I know, they have no direct impact on bees unless they eat every living thing in sight.

Depending on where they're kept, bees almost "hibernate" every year because they are not very tolerant of the cold.

John G. said...

Interesting article in discover magazine this month about the relation between the sun and global warming. The scientist profiled makes an interesting case and is conducting some unique tests on LBT. If he by chance proves to be correct, which he probably will to some degree, it could make an interesting conversation in reference to old structures such as the pyramids...like maybe they were built to make clouds? He does not have a large following at this point, he does however have the science. check it out...

deb said...

JG, I looked for that article on the Discover Magazine website and didn't find it. What is the title/author?

John G. said...

politically incorrect: Is the sun causing global warming

by Marion Long

It is about Dr.Henrik Svensmark

deb said...

Interesting: Jets of matter clocked at near-light speed

Thsnks JG...I'll check it out.

John G. said...

anyone happen to see the tornado video from manitoba canada? Great footage of a twister hovering over an open feild and power lines. There is one part in particular where the base of the vortex spawns three suction vortices right above and along the lines. That is what it looked like...
check it out on any of the national news sites.

deb said...

Wow, JG, awsome power. The video is 5 1/2 minutes:


deb said...

Fascinating stuff...I love Hubble!

Hubble Catches Jupiter Changing Its Stripes

John G. said...

Did you happen to notice the way it interacted with the power lines?
I still think there is something there, maybe not causing the twister but it certainly responds to them especially if the power is on...weird.

John G. said...

Any insight on the pioneer crafts?
Why are they slowing?

Richard Yarnell said...

I don't think there's enough info yet. I'll bet they find a continuous slowing of the craft due to the mass of the solar system. But they'll have to have the whole voyage(s) decoded to find out.

Maybe they've already picked up hitchhikers!

deb said...

Exotic cause of 'Pioneer anomaly' in doubt

deb said...

And all this time I've been thinking of using the vortex in a created wind situation. Somebody is doing it with water, and since it flows downhill it works:

Zotloterer Gravitational Vortex Power Plant

By the way this is the first time I found PESwiki. I can't believe that It hasn't turned up in searches before since I tend to scour the net for energy solutions. I don't have the time for it now, but I think I might be spending quite a bit of time reading the energy solutions posted there...much of it is fascinating stuff.

John G. said...

Thanx Deb!

John G. said...

Considering scientists like to compare gravity to suns, galaxies and planets as a sheet with a softball or bowling ball on it which sags around the ball from the gravity. it would be easy to imagine the pioneer crafts are slowing because they are almost out of our galaxy and going uphill. Right?
Also, considering our galaxy is traveling through space at supersonic speeds resulting in a shockwave or protective cacoon around it which sheilds us from gamma rays the pioneer crafts could be caught up in the drag. Compare it too what happens to your car when you pass a semi truck on the interstate.
Speaking of the cacoon, what if every 65 million years or so our galaxy slows for whatever reason, would the cacoon weaken? and if so would more gamma rays be able to pass through causing mass extinctions? would the extinctions come all at once? or would it be a slower domino type effect?

deb said...

JG, you might be onto something with the "gravity warps space" and therefore the space ships are responding to this phenomenon. It might also be measurable...which is the only way we could know.

As far as the 65 million year pattern thing, I don't see any possible way we could know. If there are mass extinctions in my lifetime or the next few generations I think it is going to be due to our depletion of oxygen because we use energy and destroy forests, i.e., plant trees and convince your community to start using greener power sources.

John G. said...

Exactly. If we can make the connection between the "Pioneer Anomoly" and the increase in Gamma rays reaching our solar system/planet we can find a way to get energy from them, possibly more efficently than we do the sun.
Considering the scientist which was published in the last dicover series can show an unpopular correlation between the sun, gamma rays and cloud cover with global climate change and the most recent article about an increase in childhood skin cancer rates being on the rise it is a very real possibility gamma rays are on the rise too, with galactical events being the culprit.
All we have to do is take all we know of prehistoric mass extinctions and put them into a "what if" scenario based on what is happening today and possibly seize an opportunity which was not available to life 65 million or 250 million years ago.
That would help the global community. Right?

deb said...

Capturing gamma rays and using them for electricity is being looked into. The processes are way beyond my comprehension, though. I did a search on "gamma ray capture" and found some articles which indicate that the technology is in it's early stages. So, maybe, one day a bright nuclear physicist will figure out how to gather unlimited energy from space...but my guess would be that the current energy corporations would "buy and bury" the technology.

deb said...

Scientists seek help sorting galaxies

Astronomers say computer programs have been unable to reliably classify the star systems. Without volunteers, it would take researchers years to wade through the photographs, which were taken automatically by a massive digital camera mounted onto a telescope at the Apache Point Observatory near Sunspot, New Mexico, Nichol said. With 10,000 to 20,000 people working to classify the galaxies, the process could take as little as a month.

John G. said...

Amelia Earhardt?
Here's a stretch of the imagination...What if there were an undersea volcanic eruption during the time they were to land and refuel? The latest discover has an article about a fisherman which recently came across an island from an undersea eruption and the island only lasted a few days before slipping back below the waves. This was in the approximate area of her refueling location.
This would fit with the skills of both the pilot and aviators being on course and may also explain the disruptions in their radio transmissions and subsequent transmissions heard around the world. We could check that area for volcanic history which may have been active at that time...

P.S. told u it was a stretch:-)

deb said...

Sigbritt, 75, has world's fastest broadband

LBT at work;-)

John G. said...

This is interesting. You can bet there will be some once in a lifetime experiments going on when this happens

Two moons on August 27, 2007...
The planet Mars will be the brightest in the night sky
starting in August.
It will look as large as the full moon to the naked
eye and will culminate on Aug. 27 when Mars comes
within 34.65M miles of earth. Be sure to watch the sky
on Aug. 27 12:30 am . It will look like the earth has
2 moons. The next time Mars may come this close is in

Richard Yarnell said...

No. It will be bright but it will not even approach the moon in apparent size.

A few (approximate) facts:

Mars' average distance from earth orbit = 46.5 million miles; upcoming close approach = 38 million miles. (Earth's orbit centers on the sun (more or less) while Mars' orbit is centered about 22 million miles from the sun.)

Moon's average magnitude = -12.5; Mars' brightness this month = -1.64; Venus at its brightest is about -4.4); the sun is -26. Anything greater than mag +5 you can't see without a telescope.

Mars' apparent angular size this month will be 15.88" (arc seconds - each arc degree is divided into 60 minutes and each minute into 60 seconds) compared to the moon's average of 30' or about half a degree (about the same as the sun).

deb said...

So will Mars be half the size of the moon on the 27th?

I just watched a very cool video with lots of Hubble pics (I'm guessing they are from Hubble). Be forwarned it takes forever for it to load on dial-up...but, I thought, worth the wait.

Dingo care e-cards

Turn on the volume.

Richard Yarnell said...

No, not half. The moon is about half a degree. Sixty minutes in a degree and sixty seconds in a minute.

So compare Mars at 15" to the moon's 30x60=1800"

By the way: not a good idea to open "e-cards. They've been co-opted by spammers and worse.

Richard Yarnell said...

www.spaceweather.com just announced the "annual Mars hoax." It's early this year.

It first appeared on August 27th, 2003 and has been an annual event since.